# Great athletes prior to 1955 that could still dominate their sport today\* **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460 "2013-07-14T05:27:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/21 "2013-07-15T02:06:20Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Got a source for the story behind that comment? While I’ve often heard that she broke the mold and expectations for her time, I hadn’t heard the “unlikable” part. ZOMG, she was NOT a nice person. Calling her a megalomaniac would be a vast understatement. I can’t get the proper link to post, but just go to [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) and look up her recent biography, “Wonder Girl” by Don Van Natta. As for being tabloid fodder, Bill Tilden was gay, but that was apparently quite well known even then, and nowadays people probably wouldn’t bat an eye. It’s believed that Babe was too, or at least bisexual, and that George Zaharias was her beard. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/22 "2013-07-15T02:12:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If he had modern nutrition, facilities, and training, as specified in the OP, Mikan probably would have bulked up closer to Shaq’s size. Okay, thinking about it a bit more, and I am just not imagining Mikan being anything more than a journeyman power forward. He wasn’t freakishly athletic - he was just bigger than everyone else. And him putting on weight - sure, let’s say he puts on 30 pounds, maybe 40; now he only weighs 70 pounds less than Shaq. Also it’d be an unknown wether or not his body, his joints and bones, would be optimal with the extra mass. I think that the earliest old time hoops player that would be able to play, and at a high level today, would probably be Elgin Baylor, and for big men it would be Wilt. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/23 "2013-07-15T02:18:14Z")
Stan Musial, Warren Spahn and Ted Williams from baseball were dominant before 1955 and for some time after it, so I’d wager they’d acquit themselves well in the modern era. Otto Graham was an excellent QB from 1946-1955, and I think he’d do well too. He had the same skills as Joe Montana, IMHO. George Mikan, on the other hand, couldn’t make the NBA today, not even on the worst team. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/24 "2013-07-15T04:05:17Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > As for being tabloid fodder, Bill Tilden was gay, but that was apparently quite well known even then, and nowadays people probably wouldn’t bat an eye. I don’t know about that. I believe what got Tilden into trouble was the fact he had a preference for underage boys. Even now, that would be a killer. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/25 "2013-07-15T04:31:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Maybe. The flip side is that Ruth was lazy and gluttonous; he might be great, but he might also end up like Mo Vaughn or Greg Luzinski or a lot of guys. The thing to bear in mind about modern training is that you actually have to make use of it; it favours harder working athletes, and Ruth was not that. Actually, contrary to popular belief, for the most part Ruth was not “lazy and gluttonous”. He actually hired his own personal trainers(or whatever term was used in the 20s) and was actually forced to stop jogging during spring training and the off-season by the Yankees because they insisted he “save his legs”.\* Yes, there were times when he did overeat, but a lot of that was a well-crafted image(such as the “bellyache heard round the world” which was almost certainly a venereal disease). He, like Roger Clemens, and others always had a fat face, but he did keep his overeating under control. There’s a reason he hit over 40 home runs when he was 36 at a time when others hung up their spikes at 30. > [@](#): > > I would be more inclined to pick a ballplayer from before 1955 who was great but also unusually athletic and hardworking, like Honus Wagner, Tris Speaker, or Oscar Charleston. Oh God, you’re right, all of them would be fantastic and bonus points for mentioning Charleston, who never got to play in the majors for reasons we both no why. Wagner actually lifted weights and had he access to modern weight rooms, trainers and nutritionists, people would be saying “Cal who”? > [@](#): > > He also never had to face a black player. Actually, he faced quite a few when barnstorming and by all accounts, including those of the African-American players in question he did extremely well. Keep in mind he played at a time when nearly a third of all games people played were barnstorming. I can tell you’re a fan so I’m going to recommend a book that I think you’ll like. [http://www.amazon.com/Year-Babe-Ruth-Home-Runs/dp/B0017U1IV2/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373862642&sr=8-1&keywords=the+year+babe+ruth+hit+104+home+runs](http://www.amazon.com/Year-Babe-Ruth-Home-Runs/dp/B0017U1IV2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373862642&sr=8-1&keywords=the+year+babe+ruth+hit+104+home+runs) ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/26 "2013-07-15T04:33:06Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I don’t know about that. I believe what got Tilden into trouble was the fact he had a preference for underage boys. Even now, that would be a killer. Some top sports colleges will only put up with that sort of thing for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/27 "2013-07-15T14:12:44Z")
Now that baseball is integrated, I’d love to see how some of the Negro League players would do; i.e., [Rube Foster](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Foster) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/28 "2013-07-15T15:59:16Z")
On one hand, it’s obvious that offensive and defensive linemen is today’s NFL are WAAAAY bigger than the guys I saw as a teenager in the Seventies, let alone in Sammy Baugh’s day. So, it’s tempting to think that, say, Alan Page and Bob Lilly could never have gotten past the 350 pound blockers of today. But look at former star offensive linemen like Mark Schlereth or Nate Newton today. When they were active offensive linemen, they were over 300 pounds. But today, they’re actually svelte! They both weigh about 225 pounds now. What that shows is, modern NFL players aren’t naturally, genetically bigger and more musicular than their predecessors. Many MADE themselves huge by eating and working out a LOT more than they really wanted to. Once they retired and went back to just eating when they were hungry, they shed a lot of weight quickly. So, it’s very likely that Mike Webster, John Hannah, Bob Kuechenberg and Ron Yary COULD have gotten a lot bigger and a lot stronger in a hurry, if they’d had the time, money, facilities and motivation to do so. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/29 "2013-07-15T16:06:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There’s very little doubt that baseball today is of vastly higher quality than it was in Babe Ruth’s day. That’s not to say Ruth wouldn’t adapt, of course he would have. But there are way more people LIKE Ruth now. What was unusual about Ruth was not that he was so much better than his peers, but that he was different. **He was the first talented hitter to hit to way modern hitters hit** , by watching a lot of pitches (he struck out a LOT for a player of that time) and trying to hit home runs. He simply refused to take the at-the-time accepted approach to hitting, instead choosing his own path, and whaddya know, it worked, so everyone started copying him. If you watch his swing, it looks much more like a swing from 1997 than 1927; like a modern batter he keeps his weight on his back foot, holding his hands back, and then moves his legs, then his hips, and only then his arms. Players at the time usually threw their arms in front to make contact. I’ve heard several commentators speculate that Babe Ruth was successful BECAUSE he was a pitcher. What they meant was that, as you say, Babe Ruth’s swing was completely unorthodox for his day. Everyone who watched him at bat thought, “He’s doing it all wrong.” If he’d played any position BESIDES pitcher, some coach or manager would have forced him to stop swinging that way, and hit the way everybody else did. But since Ruth was a pitcher, and pitchers weren’t expected to hit worth a damn anyway, nobody ever bothered to “correct” the Babe’s swing. They guy was both great and innovative, just as gold medal high jumper Dick Fosbury was. But it was inevitable that, once all the other jumpers started doing things Fosbury’s way, many of them would match or eclipse his records. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/30 "2013-07-15T16:38:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Another interesting case to consider is [George Mikan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mikan). His dominance in the 40s changed the NBA rules. He was a big man, 6’10" and heavily built. I think he would be head to head competition with Shaq in modern times. Once the shot clock was introduced, Mikan was toast. He was big, but he also was slow and couldn’t keep up with the modern NBA. Mikan’s presence was a factor in rule changes that neutralized him, but he knew he couldn’t keep up. Some possibilities who might do fine include Satchel Paige, Lefty Grove, Jimmy Foxx, and Lou Gehrig ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/31 "2013-07-15T16:44:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ty Cobb is an interesting case to consider. He couldn’t get away with a lot of things he did back then in modern baseball, and it’s hard to say if he could have been any better a player even with modern training. I’m hard pressed to think of a lot of things Ty Cobb did that wouldn’t fly in baseball today, apart from behavior like going into the stands to beat up an abusive fan and attacking a black groundskeeper who tried to shake his hand. Being a great singles and doubles hitter with modest home run power (with a live ball, anyway), possessing excellent bunting ability and great speed would still make him a highly valuable major league player today (think an early 20th century version of Ichiro Suzuki, a comparison that probably would not have pleased Cobb). There are pitchers who in their prime, with modern notions about training and innings restriction, would in my opinion have still been dominant today (for example Bob Feller and Walter Johnson). ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/32 "2013-07-15T16:51:05Z")
Gordie Howe would still be an all star in today’s NHL. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/33 "2013-07-15T17:01:26Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Gordie Howe would still be an all star in today’s NHL. And anyone who sez otherwise gets a stick in the face! Man O’ War could still tear up the track. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/34 "2013-07-15T17:21:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m hard pressed to think of a lot of things Ty Cobb did that wouldn’t fly in baseball today, apart from behavior like going into the stands to beat up an abusive fan and attacking a black groundskeeper who tried to shake his hand. Being a great singles and doubles hitter with modest home run power (with a live ball, anyway), possessing excellent bunting ability and great speed would still make him a highly valuable major league player today (think an early 20th century version of Ichiro Suzuki, a comparison that probably would not have pleased Cobb). > > There are pitchers who in their prime, with modern notions about training and innings restriction, would in my opinion have still been dominant today (for example Bob Feller and Walter Johnson). I was thinking of the sharpened cleats on his shoes, and general intimidation tactics against other players. An attitude like his could cut a career pretty short now. But he wasn’t stupid, he could have stayed within the acceptable lines in modern baseball. I’ve no doubt he’d be a great player today, but what I wonder is if he would be any better today due to modern training. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/35 "2013-07-15T17:23:44Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Once the shot clock was introduced, Mikan was toast. He was big, but he also was slow and couldn’t keep up with the modern NBA. > > Mikan’s presence was a factor in rule changes that neutralized him, but he knew he couldn’t keep up. Are you factoring in his being cloned and brought up in modern sports training? That’s the interesting part about all of this, not how they would play if transported through time, but if they had developed as modern athletes do. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/36 "2013-07-15T17:26:59Z")
Your basic speed is inherent. You will get a small improvement from modern training but if you’re slow, you remain slow. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/37 "2013-07-15T17:30:08Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Your basic speed is inherent. You will get a small improvement from modern training but if you’re slow, you remain slow. There’s a difference between a slow style of play, and being inherently slow. Is there some way to determine that Mikan was inherently slow? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/38 "2013-07-15T17:31:44Z")
But you still have to measure their athleticism and dexterity as a starting point, and Mikan did _not_ possess them way that Wilt, Baylor, Robertson did within a decade. At best, he might be a Kevin Love type of skill level, imho. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/39 "2013-07-15T19:29:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, he faced quite a few when barnstorming and by all accounts, including those of the African-American players in question he did extremely well. I’ve no doubt Ruth did fine playing against black pitchers, but it’s inescapably true that had the major leagues been integrated, it would have slightly worsened his statistics; there’s no other logical conclusion. Each black pitcher that entered the majors would have displaced a white pitcher, and in all likelihood, MLB being an imperfect but reasonably efficient meritocracy, they would have displaced inferior ballplayers. It’s not an accident that when MLB DID start adding black ballplayers in a gradual process, they were disproportionately excellent; they are naturally the first ones you’ll hire. Jackie Robinson was a better player than Dustin Pedroia; how happy would his opponents be if Dustin Pedroia had never played baseball? I’m not saying it would have collapsed Ruth’s numbers; he’d still have been the best hitter in baseball. But instead of being a career .344 hitter with 714 homers, in a fully integrated league we’d be looking at something like .339 with 689 homers - a slight adjustment, but one all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/40 "2013-07-15T19:33:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering how much better Babe Ruth was than most of his contemporaries, I’m sure he’d be phenomenal with modern training and nutrition. > > When he hit 54 home runs in 1920 to set the record for most home runs in a season, breaking the previous record of 29(set by himself), the guy who came in second hit just 19, the guy who came in third hit just 17, and the guy who came in fourth hit just 14. > > So, he outhit he combined total of the people who came in second, third and fourth. > > In 1921, he broke the record again by hitting 59 home runs while the guys who came in second and third only hit 24 each. > > Hell, in 1927 when he hit 60 to set the record which wouldn’t be broken till Maris in 1961 Only because there was no way AL pitchers would let [a Jew even tie Ruth in '38](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greenha01.shtml). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460.md?page=3)