# Great athletes prior to 1955 that could still dominate their sport today\* **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460 "2013-07-14T05:27:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/41 "2013-07-15T20:30:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve no doubt Ruth did fine playing against black pitchers, but it’s inescapably true that had the major leagues been integrated, it would have slightly worsened his statistics; there’s no other logical conclusion. Each black pitcher that entered the majors would have displaced a white pitcher, and in all likelihood, MLB being an imperfect but reasonably efficient meritocracy, they would have displaced inferior ballplayers. It’s not an accident that when MLB DID start adding black ballplayers in a gradual process, they were disproportionately excellent; they are naturally the first ones you’ll hire. Jackie Robinson was a better player than Dustin Pedroia; how happy would his opponents be if Dustin Pedroia had never played baseball? > > I’m not saying it would have collapsed Ruth’s numbers; he’d still have been the best hitter in baseball. But instead of being a career .344 hitter with 714 homers, in a fully integrated league we’d be looking at something like .339 with 689 homers - a slight adjustment, but one all the same. So, why didn’t Stan Musial’s stats plummet after 1947? Why didn’t Ted Williams’? Why didn’t Warren Spahn’s ERA soar? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/42 "2013-07-15T20:47:00Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So, why didn’t Stan Musial’s stats plummet after 1947? Why didn’t Ted Williams’? > > Why didn’t Warren Spahn’s ERA soar? Because the league didn’t become fully integrated right after Jackie Robinson started playing. It took 12 more years before the last team (Boston) brought up a black player. Many teams only had one or two black players. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/43 "2013-07-15T20:51:45Z")
It’s probably worth noting that Ty Cobb himself thought he’d only hit .300 against modern (then 1960) pitchers. Because he was 73 years old by then, of course. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/44 "2013-07-15T20:52:54Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Only because there was no way AL pitchers would let [a Jew even tie Ruth in '38](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greenha01.shtml). Strange how they kept pitching to him down the stretch if they were trying to deny him the record, huh? Greenberg was walked 119 times in 1938, normal for a frightening power hitter with good plate discipline. But his walk rate did not go up later in the season. In his last 5 games, after he’d gotten to 58, he was walked four times, a reasonably normal number. After Game 140, when he hit his 53rd homer and would have seemed like a longshot threat to get there (8 homers in 15 games would be amazing even for him, though; there was never a point late in the season when Greenberg was on pace to break the record) he drew 11 walks in 15 games, again a normal rate for him and consistent with his season rate. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/45 "2013-07-15T20:53:04Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s probably worth noting that Ty Cobb himself thought he’d only hit .300 against modern (then 1960) pitchers. > > Because he was 73 years old by then, of course. The fact that _Cobb_ isn’t better known in the baseball movie pantheon is a travesty. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/46 "2013-07-15T20:56:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So, why didn’t Stan Musial’s stats plummet after 1947? Why didn’t Ted Williams’? > > Why didn’t Warren Spahn’s ERA soar? I said this myself, and Lamar says it too, but MLB did not become fully integrated overnight. It was a gradual process that took as long as those men were productive hitters. Integration cost Stan Musial at least one pennant, but the effect on his numbers wouldn’t have been noticeable. How many black pitchers do you think he faced in 1947? 1948? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/47 "2013-07-15T21:21:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Strange how they kept pitching to him down the stretch if they were trying to deny him the record, huh? > > Greenberg was walked 119 times in 1938, normal for a frightening power hitter with good plate discipline. But his walk rate did not go up later in the season. In his last 5 games, after he’d gotten to 58, he was walked four times, a reasonably normal number. After Game 140, when he hit his 53rd homer and would have seemed like a longshot threat to get there (8 homers in 15 games would be amazing even for him, though; there was never a point late in the season when Greenberg was on pace to break the record) he drew 11 walks in 15 games, again a normal rate for him and consistent with his season rate. [New York _Times_, 20 March 2010:](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/sports/baseball/21score.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > [T]he way pitchers handled Greenberg early in the season was clearly different than the way they approached him as Ruth’s record came into view. Greenberg had four three-walk games in the final two months of the 1938 season, three in September. > > By comparison, he had no three-walk games in 1937, when he drove in 183 runs; one in 1935, when he won his first Most Valuable Player award; and three in 1940, his second M.V.P. year. > > Over all, Greenberg walked in 15.9 percent of his plate appearances through the end of August 1938. In September, that rate jumped to 20.4 percent. His walk rate was 14.5 percent in 1937 and 15 percent in 1939. > > Something changed down the stretch in 1938, and it was not in Greenberg’s approach. > > He said he felt “if I, as a Jew, hit a home run, I was hitting one against Hitler.” So he had compelling reasons not to take a walk. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/48 "2013-07-15T21:40:26Z")
A [recent biography](http://blog.detroitathletic.com/2013/06/08/new-bio-sheds-light-on-hammerin-hank-greenberg/) also mentions him being > [@](#): > > hit more often, perhaps out of frustration or to push him off the plate, not let him dig in properly, or out of wildness. He had the bruises on his arms and hips to show for it. “They’re dusting me off a bit, too,” he said in late August. “I’ve been hit by pitched balls twice in the last couple of games.” ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/49 "2013-07-15T21:44:32Z")
Someone mentioned Sammy Baugh earlier. People forget that his record for longest average punt distance for a season of 51.4 yards in 1940 is still the record. His career average is still second all time. I don’t think he could be a modern QB or DB, but he sure could punt the ball! ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/50 "2013-07-15T22:11:24Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > It’s believed that Babe was too, or at least bisexual, and that George Zaharias was her beard. If she wasn’t AT LEAST bi-sexual, I’d be stunned. She was quite a masculine-looking woman. He’ll, she was quite a masculine-looking man. Quite honestly, just by the virtue of being married to her, George should also be considered a bi-sexual. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Only because there was no way AL pitchers would let [a Jew even tie Ruth in '38](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greenha01.shtml). I doubt this had anything to do with it. I know many Jews hold this belief, but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. When Jimmy Foxx hit 58, what was his excuse? I don’t recall reading that he was Jewish. When Maris hit 61, he was under so much stress that his hair was falling out in clumps. No… The simple reason is that before the ‘road era, it was damn hard to hit 60 home runs in a season. Period. If Greenberg wasn’t getting pitches to hit, I doubt seriously if it was a case of anti-semitism. If you believe that, I think any anti-Semitic pitcher would have hit the man in the ear with a pitch and putting him down for a month or two. Breaking that record more than any other was psychological. Hammering’ Hank and the Jewish population may make themselves feel better with this story, but the truth is, only one person hit over 60 since Ruth, and that was Maris’ 61 in the eight game longer season. It’s hard. The proof is all over the record books. > [@Leaffan](#): > > Gordie Howe would still be an all star in today’s NHL. An all-star? I don’t know. Howe was good, but remember, he played in the slower. plodding NHL, and he wasn’t very big. With the influx of the global hockey world’s talent into today’s NHL, I wonder if he would even be an all-star. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/51 "2013-07-15T22:30:49Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > … but the truth is, only one person hit over 60 since Ruth, and that was Maris’ 61 in the eight game longer season. I’m sure you meant to qualify that a little better. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/52 "2013-07-15T22:45:34Z")
Of course these old-style athletes would have the benefit of modern steroids, right? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/53 "2013-07-15T23:20:14Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > When Jimmy Foxx hit 58, what was his excuse? He was being walked more often as well, though not as often as Greenberg. > [@](#): > > No… The simple reason is that before the 'road era, it was damn hard to hit 60 home runs in a season. Period. If Greenberg wasn’t getting pitches to hit, I doubt seriously if it was a case of anti-semitism. If you believe that, I think any anti-Semitic pitcher would have hit the man in the ear with a pitch and putting him down for a month or two. Greenberg _was_ getting hit, see post 48. Deliberately throwing at his ear would have been grounds for, at the very least, retaliation by his supportive teammates. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/54 "2013-07-15T23:23:57Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I don’t know about that. I believe what got Tilden into trouble was the fact he had a preference for underage boys. Even now, that would be a killer. I had not heard that, just that he was gay. If it’s true, they’re not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/55 "2013-07-16T00:17:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve no doubt Ruth did fine playing against black pitchers, but it’s inescapably true that had the major leagues been integrated, it would have slightly worsened his statistics; there’s no other logical conclusion. Each black pitcher that entered the majors would have displaced a white pitcher, and in all likelihood, MLB being an imperfect but reasonably efficient meritocracy, they would have displaced inferior ballplayers. It’s not an accident that when MLB DID start adding black ballplayers in a gradual process, they were disproportionately excellent; they are naturally the first ones you’ll hire. Jackie Robinson was a better player than Dustin Pedroia; how happy would his opponents be if Dustin Pedroia had never played baseball? > > I’m not saying it would have collapsed Ruth’s numbers; he’d still have been the best hitter in baseball. But instead of being a career .344 hitter with 714 homers, in a fully integrated league we’d be looking at something like .339 with 689 homers - a slight adjustment, but one all the same. There’s a large amount of truth, but their are other factors I think you’re ignoring. Yes, the presence of African-American baseball players, such as Bullet Joe Rogan and Satchel Paige certainly would have effected his stats negatively, but I think expansion would have more than offset that. In Babe Ruth’s time, there were just seven teams in the American League whereas now there are IIRC, fifteen. Now imagine if there’d been 15 AL teams in 1927. That would mean that roughly half the players, and more importantly regarding our discussion, half the pitchers, would have been in the minors were it not for the expansion teams. Lots of people have attributed the home run explosion of 1961 to the presence of just TWO additional teams. Imagine what having EIGHT additional teams would have done. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/56 "2013-07-16T00:24:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m sure you meant to qualify that a little better. Of course. I meant the only person since Ruth to hit over 60 hr in a season in the non-steroid era. Actually, he (Maris) is STILL the only one to hit more than 60 HR in a season outside of the steroid era, even in the post steroid era, where I’m still sure people are trying to beat the system with HGH and other synthetic drugs. One of the best power hitters of our time has been A-Rod. And even shooting and popping, he never did it **once**. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > He was being walked more often as well, though not as often as Greenberg.Greenberg _was_ getting hit, see post 48. Deliberately throwing at his ear would have been grounds for, at the very least, retaliation by his supportive teammates. Again, this proves nothing. There may have been a few guys making Greenberg hit their best pitch. Maybe they would have rather walked him than let him hit. you might remember during Bonds 73 HR season, people walked him all the time rather than let him hit a HR to beat him. If pitchers actually threw to Bonds, he might have hit 90 that year. All I’m saying is if you go back to each game, take a look at each at bat and see what the situation was. If a walk was better than a home run, there you go. If you want a Jewish conspiracy, like I said, throw one in his ear. Nobody on the Tigers would have helped him, right? After all, he was Jewish. If I am to believe you, his Tiger teammates would have rushed the field just to jump on Greenberg while he was down, to get their spikes into him, not stick up for him. You want to see some ugly racism, look read about what Aaron went through on his quest for Ruth’s all-time mark. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/57 "2013-07-16T00:54:43Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > An all-star? I don’t know. Howe was good, but remember, he played in the slower. plodding NHL, and he wasn’t very big. With the influx of the global hockey world’s talent into today’s NHL, I wonder if he would even be an all-star. 6 ft 1 205 lb ? That’s plenty big enough. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/58 "2013-07-16T01:34:03Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > 6 ft 1 > 205 lb ? > > That’s plenty big enough. Wow. I met him… Granted, it was late in his career, but I have a picture with him and I’m taller than he is by more than an inch and heavier than him, too. So, either his personal stats are padded a bit (which was and still is a popular thing to do), or I would have been a big badass on skates. I have about 4 inches on him in the picture.. And I’m 6’2" in the pic (and in real life) Maybe he shrunk. Or maybe he was slouching. I don’t recall any of that, though. I met him during a charity hockey game. The one thing I remember about him was his hands. He had enormous hands. Hands that could smash a walnut with one squeeze or rip a phone book in two. Massive, muscular hands. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/59 "2013-07-16T01:40:57Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The fact that _Cobb_ isn’t better known in the baseball movie pantheon is a travesty. Agree completely. It’s a great film. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460/60 "2013-07-16T01:45:48Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Wow. I met him… Granted, it was late in his career, but I have a picture with him and I’m taller than he is by more than an inch and heavier than him, too. So, either his personal stats are padded a bit (which was and still is a popular thing to do), or I would have been a big badass on skates. > > I have about 4 inches on him in the picture.. And I’m 6’2" in the pic (and in real life) Maybe he shrunk. Or maybe he was slouching. I don’t recall any of that, though. > > I met him during a charity hockey game. The one thing I remember about him was his hands. He had enormous hands. Hands that could smash a walnut with one squeeze or rip a phone book in two. Massive, muscular hands. Cool story. Thanks! People do shrink with age. The stats are from his Wikipedia page. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-athletes-prior-to-1955-that-could-still-dominate-their-sport-today/663460.md?page=4)