# "Great Books" that no one seems to like...what are we missing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [July 29, 2021, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575 "2021-07-29T06:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/201 "2021-08-02T15:34:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > but the writing style just didn’t do it for me I think sometimes a writer’s style will just “click” with some readers and _not_ click with others. It may be a combination of what you’re used to reading, and how your mind works (and whether or not the author’s mind works in a similar way). ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/202 "2021-08-02T16:34:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They are like nations apart geographically. Why is that important? There’s a test, originally meant for movies but applicable to novels, about how equitable they are to women. I forget the name of the test, but most movies fail miserably. Anyway, the things it asks are if there is more than one woman in a significant role and, if so, do they talk to each other about something other than men. LotR fails miserably too. As I posted upthread, I count a total of 8 female characters. Only one, Eowyn, has a significant role. Another, Galadriel, has a somewhat more than bit part; the rest are just bit parts. None of them talk to each other or are even on stage together as far a I remember. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/203 "2021-08-02T16:41:54Z")
Since you mention such gender analyses— that is an interesting question; how do all the other epic works mentioned in this thread fare ( Mahabharatam, Odyssey, Kalevala, Paradise Lost, etc etc etc) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/204 "2021-08-02T16:43:06Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > There’s a test, originally meant for movies but applicable to novels, about how equitable they are to women. I forget the name of the test, but most movies fail miserably. Yeah, that test had a brief moment of popularity, but no one takes it seriously anymore. Galadriel has a very significant part, and she is the most powerful person alive in Middle earth (I argue that Sauron is not longer truly 'alive"). Galadriel is concerned with saving the world. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/205 "2021-08-02T16:43:07Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > There’s a test, originally meant for movies but applicable to novels, about how equitable they are to women. I forget the name of the test, but most movies fail miserably. The [Bechdel Test](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test). > [@](#): > > According to [user-edited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User-generated_content) databases and the media industry press, about half of all films meet these criteria. Passing or failing the test is not necessarily indicative of how well women are represented in any specific work. Rather, the test is used as an indicator for the active presence of women in the entire field of film and other fiction, and to call attention to [gender inequality in fiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_fiction). ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/206 "2021-08-02T16:52:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Galadriel has a very significant part, and she is the most powerful person alive in Middle earth No, Gandalf is. He’s one of the Maiar, who existed before the creation of Middle Earth. Galadriel is only an Elf, though one of the most powerful. ---
**Author:** ![billellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7993a0/32.png) [@billellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billellis)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/207 "2021-08-02T16:56:56Z")
I recommend “Bored of the Rings”, published by The Harvard Lampoon in 1969. Follow the misadventures of Frito and Dildo Bugger, Goodgulf the Wizard, Arrowroot of Arrowshirt. It’s somewhat dated but you may have milk coming out your nose reading it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/208 "2021-08-02T17:02:02Z")
Gandalf has great power- but not on Middle earth, where his power is constrained. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/209 "2021-08-02T17:26:52Z")
Is it? More so than Galariel’s? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/210 "2021-08-02T17:46:07Z")
> **[White Council](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/White_Council)** > > The White Council, or Council of the Wise, was a group of Elves and Wizards of Middle-earth, formed in TA 2463 to counterbalance the growing power of Dol Guldur at the request of Lady Galadriel. A Council of the Wise occurred in the mid-Second Age to... . _She resists him, and ultimately Galadriel is the one to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur, rather than Saruman. In the book, Gandalf mentioned that it was by the devices of Saruman that Sauron was driven away. However, as Saruman probably did plan the attack, the film may not be inaccurate after all._ > **[Lord Of The Rings: 20 Most Powerful Characters, Ranked](https://screenrant.com/lord-of-the-rings-most-powerful-characters-ranked/)** > > Who would win in a fight between Sauron and Shelob, Galadriel, and Gandalf? Lord of the Rings is full of powerful beings. Here's how they rank. She is ranked 2 of 19, with Tom Bombadil only more powerful. The extent of Toms powers are unknown, but I won’t quibble. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/211 "2021-08-02T17:49:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, that test had a brief moment of popularity, but no one takes it seriously anymore. This is inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/212 "2021-08-02T18:22:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > She is ranked 2 of 19, with Tom Bombadil only more powerful. Please! Tom Bombadil at #1. 🤣 That’s a subjective cllickbait article, based on the movies, not the books. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/213 "2021-08-02T18:29:03Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Tom Bombadil at #1. 🤣 > > That’s a subjective cllickbait article, based on the movies, not the books. If it were “based on the movies, not the books,” they wouldn’t have mentioned Tom Bombadill. I don’t dispute the “subjective claickbait article” claim, though. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/214 "2021-08-02T18:32:52Z")
True! I should have said mainly based on the movies. The author is obviously not a Tolkien geek. > Yet, [Bombadil] takes no stance for or against the Dark Lords, seemingly above such trivial struggles. It is stated that he existed before the First Dark Lord, implying he existed before the Valar. Crap. He may be the first being to live on Middle Earth – he is kind of an embodiment of Nature – even before the Valar came into it. But the Valar existed long before Middle Earth, and presumably Tom Bombadil, were created. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/215 "2021-08-02T18:33:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Galadriel has a very significant part, and she is the most powerful person alive in Middle earth ( How powerful she is is orthogonal to how significant a role she played in the story. She had more than a bit part, but not a whole lot more. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Please! Tom Bombadil at #1. 🤣 > > That’s a subjective cllickbait article, based on the movies, not the books. Tom Bombadil wasn’t even in the movies. But the topic of who was the most powerful being in Middle Earth deserves its own thread. So I’m not going to discuss it here. Except for this: > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > No, Gandalf is. He’s one of the Maiar, who existed before the creation of Middle Earth. If I understand correctly, there were four Maiar in LotR, although Gandalf is the only one to survive to the end. However, Maiar are extremely variable creatures, much more so than humans, and do not have a fixed amount of power. So an elf or even a human could be more powerful than one of them. Not likely, granted, but potentially. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/216 "2021-08-02T18:50:18Z")
Of course it is, since JRRT never made such a list. But that does seem to be the general opinion of fans out there. > [@dtilque](#): > > If I understand correctly, there were four Maiar in LotR, although Gandalf is the only one to survive to the end. Six- five Wizards and Sauron, iirc. Radagast also survived. We are not sure about what happened to the two Blue wizards. It does not seem they survived. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/217 "2021-08-02T19:47:05Z")
Tolkien’s exclusion of women is an interesting topic. Unlike other epics it’s not misogynist–the few women are strong, capable leaders who do what they want. It’s just that they are…few. My guess is that while Tolkien had a positive view of women he couldn’t get past his own war experience that was dominated by men. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think sometimes a writer’s style will just “click” with some readers and _not_ click with others. It may be a combination of what you’re used to reading, and how your mind works (and whether or not the author’s mind works in a similar way). Largely agree with this. I love LOTR and re-read passages just for Tolkien’s prose and his description of Eowyn’s defiance of the Witch King makes me emotional. But I understand why how other readers wouldn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/218 "2021-08-02T19:49:05Z")
I think there’s a valid case for making Bombadil the most powerful creature in Middle Earth. He’s the only one for whom the Ring has no power over, which says something. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/219 "2021-08-02T19:51:47Z")
On a more general note, it’s interesting that some posters have said some great literature must be read when older, after having more life experience. I disagree some; great art can teach us about emotions and experiences we haven’t encountered yet. Maybe it doesn’t click for most young leaders but there are probably a few who learn about life. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/220 "2021-08-02T19:52:31Z")
I long thought Bombadil was Eru Ilúvatar (capital “G” God) but Tolkien explicitly refuted that. Tolkien never gave a definitive answer about Bombadil. ETA: I _think_ Tom Bombadil was the name of his daughter’s doll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=12)