# "Great Books" that no one seems to like...what are we missing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [July 29, 2021, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575 "2021-07-29T06:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/301 "2021-08-05T22:09:50Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > If the author’s intent _was_ knowable, what would change? If the author unambiguously did not intend an interpretation does that mean the interpretation is wrong? Sometimes, but for the most part, not really. It depends on the specific analytical philosophy being used, and the specific claims being made. Most analysis isn’t claiming “this is true,” so much as “this is interesting.” To take an example someone mentioned upthread, let’s look at “The Wizard of Oz is an allegory for the free coinage of silver.” If the claim is that this was intended by Frank Baum, that’s a (potentially) falsifiable claim. And biographical analysis, where you look not just at the work itself, but at the author’s journals, correspondence, contemporary accounts of the author written by other people, and so forth, is certainly a valid approach to interpreting literature. But “The Wizard of Oz _can be interpreted as_ an allegory for the free coinage of silver,” is a slightly different claim. It’s not making a statement of intent, it’s making an observation of similarity. The interpretation works, at least at a superficial level: the “yellow brick road” leading to a false utopia is the gold standard, the shoes (ruby in the movie, but silver in the book) are the silver standard that provide the true path home. The interpretation fits, sort of, whether it was intentional or not. Where the analysis fails is that it’s not very interesting. It reduces the book to the level of an editorial cartoon, with all the components carefully labelled. It ties the book to a specific, defunct political issue that most people barely remember from high school history classes. “The cowardly lion is William Jennings Bryant!” Jesus, who cares? Which is the other problem with authorial intent. What if someone finds a lost Frank Baum diary, that explicitly confirms that he intended The Wizard of Oz to be an allegory to 19th century economic policy? Is that now the _required_ interpretation every time you read it, or can you ignore what the author intended, and just enjoy the book on its own merits? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2021, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/302 "2021-08-05T22:17:36Z")
Very much what I think about the whole thing except worded better and with better examples. I think interpretations succeed and fail on their own merits and the author can screw themself. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/303 "2021-08-05T23:21:52Z")
You forgot Glinda, the Good Witch of the North (representing Cecil Adams, symbol of universal righteousness). > **[Is The Wizard of Oz a satire of the French Revolution?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341539/is-em-the-wizard-of-oz-em-a-satire-of-the-french-revolution)** ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/304 "2021-08-06T09:28:14Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > “Honestly, Over 400 pages devoted to killing a whale because it ate your hand? Come on.” Did they get _Moby Dick_ confused with _Peter Pan_? > [@DCnDC](#): > > This is my main issue with **Gatsby** ; no one ever remembers the point. When someone tells me they want to throw a “Gatsby party” I think: “You want to have an affair and murder each other?” There was a local restaurant with a Gatsby theme. It went out of business during lockdown but seriously, no thank you anyway. > [@DrDeth](#): > > However, a warm savory steam from the kitchen served to belie the apparently cheerless prospect before us. But when that smoking chowder came in, the mystery was delightfully explained. Oh, sweet friends! hearken to me. It was made of small juicy clams, scarcely bigger than hazel nuts, mixed with pounded ship biscuit, and salted pork cut up into little flakes; the whole enriched with butter, and plentifully seasoned with pepper and salt.” Goddamn it. Now I want some proper New England clam chowder, which is impossible to find outside New England. Where I am not. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/305 "2021-08-06T11:23:26Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > There was a local restaurant with a Gatsby theme. It went out of business during lockdown but seriously, no thank you anyway. We had a Daisy Buchanan’s here in Boston. Strange name, but interesting history. > **[The End of Daisy Buchanan’s: Sports Stars Flocked to Storied Boston Bar](https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-bruins/2014/11/07/the-end-of-daisy-buchanans-sports-stars-flocked-to-storied-boston-bar/)** > > For many Boston athletes -- as well as visiting teams -- game night wasn’t complete without a stop at the famous Newbury St. bar. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/306 "2021-08-06T14:52:58Z")
I shared the existential experience of “_Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening_” until I was taught that it is a contemplation of suicide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/307 "2021-08-06T15:58:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Goddamn it. Now I want some proper New England clam chowder, which is impossible to find outside New England. Where I am not. Here on the CA coast, like in Monterey, you can find it. Some soup places have a OK copy, but they cheap out by too many potatoes, not enough clams. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/308 "2021-08-06T16:03:25Z")
When the Ken Burns documentary on Hemmingway was on PBS last spring, my daughter, who received a degree in creative writing about 15 years ago, mentioned that in all the American Lit classes she had taken in high school and college, she had never once been assigned any of Hemmingway’s works. I was shocked that someone who was considered one of The Greatest American Authors (and important enough to merit a **Ken Burns** documentary, no less!) had fallen so far out of favor that he isn’t even sampled just 50 years after he died ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/309 "2021-08-06T16:36:08Z")
I’d be shocked, too, enough to ask her to clarify whether she meant she just hadn’t been assigned any of Hemingway’s _books_. Arguably his greatest works were the best of his short stories. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/310 "2021-08-06T17:56:15Z")
‘Did you read the one about the shoes? So sad.’ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/311 "2021-08-06T18:00:48Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I was shocked that someone who was considered one of The Greatest American Authors (and important enough to merit a **Ken Burns** documentary, no less!) had fallen so far out of favor that he isn’t even sampled just 50 years after he died Do you know why this is (read: what does your daughter think…you can weigh in too, of course)? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/312 "2021-08-06T19:32:05Z")
I suspect it has something to do with his high-testosterone machismo and amorous entanglements. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/314 "2021-08-06T19:39:01Z")
I kinda think it is his misogyny too. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/315 "2021-08-06T19:54:08Z")
Yup, he loved women. That’s why he mistreated them. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/316 "2021-08-06T20:09:54Z")
Probably a large part of it was his misogyny. I think another large part of it was that (from what I can remember) a lot of what she read was from women, African-American, and Latinx authors, and virtually all of it except for Salinger, post-1960. I told her that I would have thought Hemmingway would be studied at least for his literary style - short, direct, even terse. Her response was a slight sneer and, “Yeah, _journalism_.” My degree and a large chunk of my career were in journalism. It was like a knife through my heart! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/317 "2021-08-06T20:13:40Z")
I got a BA in English lit. about 20 years ago, and I’ve only ever read on book by Hemingway, in high school. Can’t remember the name, or much of the plot, except the protagonist had had his balls shot off in the war. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/318 "2021-08-06T20:16:48Z")
_ **The Sun Also Rises.** _ That was the first edition Diane gave Sam to read on _ **Cheers!** _ He dropped it into his bath when he got to that part. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/319 "2021-08-06T20:18:13Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I think another large part of it was that (from what I can remember) a lot of what she read was from women, African-American, and Latinx authors, and virtually all of it except for Salinger, post-1960. Yeah, nothing biased in that! 🥺 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/320 "2021-08-06T20:24:59Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I told her that I would have thought Hemmingway would be studied at least for his literary style - short, direct, even terse. Her response was a slight sneer and, “Yeah, _journalism_ .” I never thought his style was particularly journalistic. But how would she know if she’s never read anything by him? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/321 "2021-08-06T20:26:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can’t remember the name, or much of the plot, except the protagonist had had his balls shot off in the war. There actually isn’t much of a plot. I read it about 20 years ago, and all I remember is a bunch of boring, pretentious American expatriates leaving Paris to do boring, pretentious things while on holiday in Spain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=17)