# "Great Books" that no one seems to like...what are we missing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [July 29, 2021, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575 "2021-07-29T06:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/322 "2021-08-06T20:31:10Z")
He did start out as a journalist. He worked for _ **The Kansas City Star** _, whose house manual insists reporters write in a very economical (downright terse) style. A lot of that carried over into his prose. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/323 "2021-08-06T20:40:54Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Yeah, nothing biased in that! šŸ„ŗ I guess all the old, white European male teachers were busy teaching English Lit. šŸ˜‰ > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I never thought his style was particularly journalistic. But how would she know if sheā€™s never read anything by him? Iā€™m sure sheā€™s read him, she just said she hadnā€™t been assigned to read him. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/324 "2021-08-06T21:11:42Z")
IIRC Oscar Wilde once turned in a manuscript to his editor and said it would have been shorter if he had more time. While being ā€œterseā€ is not ideal any writer benefits when tightening up what they wrote. To my mind the best example of this is the Gettysburg Address. Abraham Lincoln was a fantastic writer and he outdid himself on that one. Just amazing writing. Most people are too lazy to do multiple re-writes (I count myself in that group). The very best writers do it though. On their own or, if they are lucky, with the help of a good editor. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/325 "2021-08-06T21:14:55Z")
Have you read Garry Willsā€™ book on The Gettysburg Address? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/326 "2021-08-06T21:15:55Z")
No. I have not heard of him. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/327 "2021-08-06T21:18:35Z")
I highly recommend it for its history and literary analysis. > **[Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America: Gary Wills: 9780743299633:...](https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Gettysburg-America-Schuster-Library/dp/0743299639)** > > Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America \[Gary Wills\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America I remember a presentation I had to make while in college. The first draft ran way over my allotted time. I ended up cutting at least a third of what I had written, and wound up with a much better text. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/329 "2021-08-06T21:37:25Z")
Brevity is good, but you donā€™t have to go _that_ far. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/330 "2021-08-06T21:50:33Z")
At least Hemingway still has name recognition. Other than Fitzgerald, all his other contemporaries are lost. Tom Wolfeā€™s ā€œOh this, Oh thatā€ rhapsodizing. John Oā€™Hara, from the wrong side of the tracks Pennsylvania pressing his face against the glass of Manhattanā€™s candy store and recording the full inventory. Frank Norris and William Saroyan and the writers who were even further Left whoā€™s careers and reputations didnā€™t survive the McCarthy era. As a Midwestern kid, I read everything of Sinclair Lewis I could find. Same for Kurt Vonnegut, for the same Midwestern reason. I probably had a Southern coeval reading Faulkner for the same reason, poor guy. Monoculturization and historical amnesia will bury American literature. Its not the authorsā€™ fault. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/331 "2021-08-07T00:56:15Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > As a Midwestern kid, I read everything of Sinclair Lewis That, I can understand. It gives some meaning and context for reading Sinclair Lewis ā€“ an author otherwise justly consigned to history šŸ™‚ . My dadā€™s college reader, from the 40ā€™s, included Green Acres, and a selection from Lincoln Steffens, and a selection from Babbitt. Iā€™m glad I read Green Acres, and the selection from the Autobiography of Lincoln Steffens inspired me to buy the book, which became a favorite. Babbitt though ā€¦ no better in bulk than in selection. I pitied the students who were required to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/332 "2021-08-07T02:02:08Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Babbitt though ā€¦ no better in bulk than in selection. I pitied the students who were required to read it. _Babbitt_ was one of the books I had to read in my sophomore year of high school (American Lit) in '82. As I recall, not a _bad_ book, but dated, even then. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/333 "2021-08-07T02:32:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As Mark Twain wrote _ā€œPERSONS attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.ā€_ > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Too bad heā€™s no longer around to enforce that on the English teachers of America. His ghost aimed for the English teachers and accidentally nabbed David Foster Wallace. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/334 "2021-08-07T18:10:41Z")
Speaking of interpreting works of literature I remember reading somewhere an anecdote of a student who got into an argument with his teacher they were reading _Don Quixote_ in **English** and the teacher was making a great deal about the word usage in a passage and how Miguel Cervantes hid a double meaning into the passage. The student reminded the teacher Cervantes originally wrote the book in **Spanish** and there is no way he intended that passage to be understood in that way. Which reminded **me** that a lot of foreign language works probably mean more in their native languages than their translations in English. And that the translators can influence how works of literature are interpreted beyond their original authors intent. So one should keep that in mind when reading anything that was not originally written in English. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/335 "2021-08-07T20:12:11Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Brevity is good, but you donā€™t have to go _that_ far. My professor endorsed all of the omissions but one, which stayed in the text. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/336 "2021-08-07T21:32:32Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > On a more general note, itā€™s interesting that some posters have said some great literature must be read when older, after having more life experience. The first book I remember reading, really _reading_, to the point where the outside world entirely disappears, and even oneself disappears, was _Ivanhoe_. I might have been eleven. And we can debate whether or not _Ivanhoe_ (or anything Scott wrote) was ā€œgreat literature,ā€ but the point is that children can experience literature on some level, perhaps a very different level than that on which adults experience it, but itā€™s nonetheless a real experience. And perhaps, in some ways, a deeper experience. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/337 "2021-08-08T08:20:09Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > And we can debate whether or not _Ivanhoe_ (or anything Scott wrote) was ā€œgreat literature,ā€ _Ivanhoe_ is probably the worst book that Scott ever wrote. Itā€™s a bit of an anomaly among Scottā€™s novels Almost all his books are about Scottish history, a subject Scott seriously knew about and deeply loved. The book that made him a bestselling author and a household name was _Waverley_. Scottā€™s ā€˜Waverley novelsā€™ are real literature. Heā€™s a powerful, profound and thoughtful writer. His books are memorable and thought-provoking, and he single-handedly changed the way that Scotland was perceived. His novels have complex three-dimensional characters and interesting plots. He is one of the few novelists I have ever come across who is able to show sincere and upright people holding totally opposed opinions, where itā€™s not at all clear who is right, if anyone is. He has a deep respect for ordinary, poor, working people and is at home with all classes of society. He loves and enjoys human nature across the whole wide and varied range of life. He also has a wonderful sense of humour and is a great storyteller. Howeverā€¦ His books are not much read today because itā€™s necessary to know something about Scottish history to be able to follow them. They tend to be set in the middle of complex political, social, and religious conflicts, and Scott doesnā€™t explain anything. Scott refers without any explanation at all to the Duke of Cumberland, Prince Frederick, the Covenanters, Jacobites, Whigs, non-Jurors, the Penal Laws, the Killing Times, Prince Charles Edwardā€™s grandfather, etc. The reader is assumed to know what heā€™s talking about. He takes it for granted that the reader will know which political party the Duke of Argyll belonged to, and why it matters. And all these things _do_ matter, because if you donā€™t know about them youā€™re not going to be able to follow whatā€™s happening, and the motivations and actions of the characters. He will talk about someone called ā€˜Dundeeā€™, and then a few pages later about ā€˜Claverhouseā€™, and then thereā€™s also a ā€˜Colonel Grahamā€™. You are expected to know that he is talking about the _same person_ by three different titles. He mentions ā€˜the Chevalier St. Georgeā€™ and and a few paragraphs later ā€˜the young Chevalierā€™. You are expected to know that heā€™s talking about two _different_ people, and who they are. When his novels were published people _did_ know these things, and no explantion was necessary, but today almost nobody knows anything about 16th-18th century Scottish history. All this makes it difficult for a modern reader to read his best novels without a good introduction giving the history of the period, and many footnotes. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/339 "2021-08-09T14:00:28Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > Brevity is good, but you donā€™t have to go _that_ far. > > My professor endorsed all of the omissions but one, which stayed in the text. Ah, sorry - I wasnā€™t actually responding to your post. **Whack-a-Mole** had made, then deleted a post, leaving Discourseā€™s automatic ā€œ(post deleted by author)ā€ message. I was making a silly joke about taking Hemingwayesque terseness to its limit. No criticism of your post meant. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/340 "2021-08-09T14:07:02Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > All this makes it difficult for a modern reader to read his best novels without a good introduction giving the history of the period Thank you ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/341 "2021-08-09T16:12:14Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > _Ivanhoe_ is probably the worst book that Scott ever wrote. Itā€™s a bit of an anomaly among Scottā€™s novels > > Almost all his books are about Scottish history, a subject Scott seriously knew about and deeply loved. Absolutely agreed. And Iā€™ve read, and loved, all of the Waverly novels (by which I mean the Scottish historical novels ā€“ Iā€™ve learned over the years that sometimes people call all of Scottā€™s novels the Waverly novels, because they were published as written by ā€œthe author of _Waverly_,ā€ rather than as written by Walter Scott, but thatā€™s a side issue). And theyā€™re very arguably better books. No question about it. But Iā€™ve had very few reading experiences as deep as my experience of reading _Ivanhoe_. It was just a moment ā€“ that moment of being just old enough to be able to read a book that wasnā€™t written for children, of being a bookish enough child that I actually would voluntarily read a book of that length, combined with _Ivanhoe_ being perfectly written to capture the imagination of a young child (I think I was eleven). So to say that " _Ivanhoe_ is probably the worst book that Scott ever wrote" is, well, perhaps thatā€™s true from the perspective of a literary critic. From the point of view of a young reader, most definitely _not_ true. And whoā€™s to say that perspective is less valid, or less important, than the perspective of the critic? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/342 "2021-08-09T16:27:51Z")
Gotcha, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/343 "2021-08-09T16:30:34Z")
I liked _Ivanhoe_ a lot, but I didnā€™t remotely expect it to be historically accurate. Plus it helped when I later read Simon Hawkeā€™s _[The Ivanhoe Gambit](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ivanhoe-Gambit-1-TIMEWARS/dp/1484098773)_ (which is not a ā€œgreat bookā€ in any sense but manages to be reasonably engaging sci-fi). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=18)