# "Great Books" that no one seems to like...what are we missing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [July 29, 2021, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575 "2021-07-29T06:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/344 "2021-08-09T16:36:49Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I liked _Ivanhoe_ a lot, but I didn’t remotely expect it to be historically accurate. Well, me neither. I was, after all, eleven. My point is that it created a world that I lived in, for a little while. Historical accuracy had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/345 "2021-08-09T16:37:26Z")
I was in my 20s. It was fine. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/346 "2021-08-09T18:17:11Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > I liked _Ivanhoe_ a lot, but I didn’t remotely expect it to be historically accurate. > > Well, me neither. I was, after all, eleven. > > My point is that it created a world that I lived in, for a little while. Historical accuracy had nothing to do with it Agreed. It might not be great literature, but it was exciting and fun. Knights on horseback, Robin Hood, hidden kings, damsels in distress - it was a rollicking tale of adventure, for a thirteen year-old. And how many other novels in the early nineteenth century featured a Jewish woman as a sympathetic, heroic character? Rebecca of York was unquestionably the heroine of the novel, and its most admirable character. Even at 13, I knew that Ivanhoe should have ended up with her, rather than that insipid blonde Rowena. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/347 "2021-08-09T21:51:00Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > And how many other novels in the early nineteenth century featured a Jewish woman as a sympathetic, heroic character? Rebecca of York was unquestionably the heroine of the novel, and its most admirable character. Even at 13, I knew that Ivanhoe should have ended up with her, rather than that insipid blonde Rowena. I completely agree on all points. But England was not so enlightened in either Ivanhoe’s or Scott’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Ziberian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/919ad9/32.png) [@Ziberian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ziberian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/348 "2021-08-09T23:31:25Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The problem with “great books” is that the people who are deciding are English professors and other circle-jerking insiders, just like the same cinema dorks who choose a lot of unenjoyable movies as “great films” and shit all over good and enjoyable movies. In both cases, they have a snooty opinion of what makes a “good” book or film, and it doesn’t matter how enjoyable the book or film is. No, they’re just more sophisticated readers. I don’t intend that to sound snooty, but people who have read extensively, analyzed writings, etc simply appreciate elements of writing that escape those with less experience. Same with music – Pachelbel’s Canon is a great example, very popular with average people, but people who are more advanced in music appreciation (usually because they’ve listened to a lot more music, maybe play or write music) find it simplistic and trivial. The problem comes when these sophisticated readers forget what it was like to be at entry level & force books on students who aren’t nearly ready to appreciate them. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/349 "2021-08-10T00:51:14Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The first book I remember reading, really _reading_ , to the point where the outside world entirely disappears, and even oneself disappears, was _Ivanhoe_ . I’ve never read the book, but the name rang a bell. After looking up the novel on Wikipedia, it turns out that many of the characters, or at least characters with the same names, were used in an old strategy game on the NES called _Defender of the Crown._ The game was about the war between the Saxons and the Normans for control of England. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/350 "2021-08-10T01:32:50Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > how Miguel Cervantes hid a double meaning into the passage. The student reminded the teacher Cervantes originally wrote the book in **Spanish** and there is no way he intended that passage to be understood in that way. I’ve been missing my wife a lot lately and recalled how she would e-say that Therbanteth wrote in Vulgate Latin, not Spanish. 😉 She tried to teach me Spanish but her Gage Park abuela accent, full of 19th century formality, got in the way. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/351 "2021-08-10T03:48:41Z")
“Dead or alive, Aethelstane is a bore.” Richard Armour, **The Classics Reclassified**. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/352 "2021-08-10T04:12:53Z")
_A Confederacy of Dunces_ I read it hoping that someone would _murder_ Ignatius J. Reilly and then we would have a better book. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/353 "2021-08-11T03:39:22Z")
I’ll drop this here: My introduction to most of the “great books” wasn’t assigned reading; it was Classics Illustrated and movie versions that spurred me to read the originals. Anybody else? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/354 "2021-08-11T04:08:06Z")
ive noticed over the decades a a type of book thats not really a story … just more like nihilistic observations about segments of society at certain points in time where the observer dosent really make judgements one way or another Now whether its intentional like in Easton Ellis’s less than zero and keuroacs on the road or just happens like in gatsby… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/355 "2021-08-11T04:22:01Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > Same with music – Pachelbel’s Canon is a great example, very popular with average people, but people who are more advanced in music appreciation (usually because they’ve listened to a lot more music, maybe play or write music) find it simplistic and trivial. Or they are just burnt out and can’t appreciate the simple good things. > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > _A Confederacy of Dunces_ > > I read it hoping that someone would _murder_ Ignatius J. Reilly and then we would have a better book. Unreadable and dull, dull dull. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/356 "2021-08-11T05:33:10Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’ll drop this here: My introduction to most of the “great books” wasn’t assigned reading; it was Classics Illustrated and movie versions that spurred me to read the originals. Anybody else? I’ve read both the original and the _ **Classics Illustrated** _ versions of the following novels. I must admit, the latter add a dimension to the stories that made them much more interesting: _ **The War of the Worlds** _ _ **The Time Machine** _ _ **Taras Bulba** _ _ **Ivanhoe** _ I read the _ **CI** _ version of _ **Ben Hur** _ _and_ have seen the movie, but have yet to read the novel. The movie version of _ **Taras Bulba** _ (Yul Brynner, Tony Curtis, Christine Kaufman) was good, but (as with _ **The Grapes of Wrath** _) Hollywood ended it before the big climax. I actually read both _ **The Brothers Karamazov** _ and _ **Crime and Punishment** _ when I was in grad school, but I enjoyed the movies (one Hollywood, one Soviet) much more. I might get around to reading _ **War and Peace** _ some day, but I’ve sat through the Soviet movie version so many times I doubt it would hold many surprises for me. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/357 "2021-08-11T06:45:08Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > Same with music – Pachelbel’s Canon is a great example, very popular with average people, but people who are more advanced in music appreciation (usually because they’ve listened to a lot more music, maybe play or write music) find it simplistic and trivial. I’ve studied, played, and performed music for years. Pachebel’s Canon is simplistic, yes, in the basic melody; but it’s what you might arrange behind that, that makes every version special. It could be a full orchestra, or a simple duet of flute and guitar. In other words, it’s not Pachelbel’s Canon so much; it’s what you can do with it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/358 "2021-08-11T12:25:48Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’ll drop this here: My introduction to most of the “great books” wasn’t assigned reading; it was Classics Illustrated and movie versions that spurred me to read the originals. Anybody else? It was a mixture. Some books I first encountered in school, reading parts of them, which spurred me onto the full texts – **A Christmas Carol** , **Gulliver’s Travels** , **The Odyssey** (which we actually read the whole text of, but it lead me on to try to read **The Iliad** )\* Other books I first encountered in _Classics Illustrated_ and went on to read the real ones . This was especially true of the Jules Verne and H.G. Wells novels – **20,000 Leagues** , **Journey to the Center of the Earth** , **The Mysterious Island** , **First Men in the Moon** , **From the Earth to the Moon.**. Also Frank Buck’s **On Jungle Trails**. (A lot of the Verne titles they offered weren’t that easy to come by, especially in paperback, like **Robur the Conqueror** and **Master of the World** and **Tigers and Traitors**. I wondered if they might not have been influenced by the ARCO/Fitzroy versions put out circa 1960. Other books I read because I saw that they were in the Reader’s Digest Condensed Book series, and I didn’t, even at that age, want a diluted book experience. So I read **Kon-Tiki** and **Flight of the Phoenix** in the original, non-condensed versions. \*My mother got me the Classics Illustrated version of **The Iliad** , but she ended up using it more herself. She was taking a night course in English Lit, and the comic book version was easier to follow than the original poem. Or the Cliff’s Notes. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/359 "2021-08-11T12:30:12Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I actually read both _ **The Brothers Karamazov** _ and _ **Crime and Punishment** _ when I was in grad school, but I enjoyed the movies (one Hollywood, one Soviet) much more. Peter Lorre as Raskolnikov, that’s hard to beat! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/360 "2021-08-11T13:31:52Z")
I don’t buy that for a minute. That same tired argument is the one that gets trotted out to defend every sort of elitist preference like that- “they’re not sophisticated enough”, “they’re just ignorant rubes”, “their palate isn’t developed enough”. As if somehow being impenetrable, hard to read, and not entertaining is a sign of how sophisticated or good a book is. Same thing for cinema, food, wine, music, etc… It’s bullshit. I’m not saying there aren’t people out there who like this stuff. What I’m saying is that it’s their opinion, and that just because a certain set of people like something, it doesn’t make the stuff they don’t like “simple” or “unsophisticated”, and conversely, just because something is “sophisticated” and impenetrable, or harsh tasting or whatever, it doesn’t mean that it’s better, or that people who don’t like it aren’t sophisticated. Hell, if you want to look at things like wine, blind tastings have shown that even the most sophisticated wine drinkers can’t really tell wines apart, and certainly not by price level or anything that would indicate they have any more of a clue than anyone else. I’m not exactly a populist in a whole lot of areas, but this sort of snootiness is one thing that I am definitely populist about. I’m tired of being told that because I don’t like a lot of stuff like “literature” or , that it implies that I’m somehow ignorant or unsophisticated. I read for fun and pleasure. So books I read have to be fun and enjoyable. Not silly or simply written, just entertaining. I don’t like Hemingway for example. Not because he’s a bad writer- far from it. I don’t like him because his stories are generally not entertaining to me. I haven’t enjoyed most art house films I’ve watched either- because they’re not pleasurable or entertaining- that’s why I spend $10 and 2 hours of my life in the movie theater. I’m a little closer on food- I’ve eaten more than my fair share of meals at very expensive places, including Michelin-starred ones, and know what? I still enjoy Chicken McNuggets. And corn dogs. And a big bowl of chili with cornbread on a cold evening. Nothing wrong with any of them, and shame on anyone who claims there is. That’s my gripe with teaching “great books”- they’re often just flat out not pleasant to read, and I suspect that high school and below English teachers would get a LOT more mileage English-wise out of having students read more contemporary stuff than awful stuff like The Scarlet Letter, The Old Man and the Sea, Silas Marner, Catcher in the Rye, etc… There’s nothing “special” about those books that students couldn’t learn from less classical sources, and in fact, they might be more willing and learn more if the books were more enjoyable. Case in point- I took a senior-level English literature course in college as a humanities elective. The literature- science fiction and fantasy. Probably the most engaged I’ve ever been, and the most I ever learned about literary themes, etc… Why? Because the stories were actually entertaining in their own right, not just for the sake of the actual writing itself, or because of the motifs or some other stuff like that. THAT is what I’m talking about- the “great books” aren’t so great, if people don’t enjoy them. The people saying that the books are “great” tend to be somewhat isolated in their own echo chamber where they stroke each other telling themselves how great Hawthorne and Thoreau are, while the rest of the world rolls their eyes and goes back to reading Nora Roberts or George R. R. Martin because they _enjoy_ their writing. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/361 "2021-08-11T13:49:06Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > My mother got me the Classics Illustrated version of **The Iliad** , but she ended up using it more herself. She was taking a night course in English Lit Wait a minute, The Iliad isn’t English Lit! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/362 "2021-08-11T13:59:47Z")
Re: Pachelbel’s Canon in D: > [@DrDeth](#): > > Or they are just burnt out and can’t appreciate the simple good things. I suspect Pachelbel himself considered it simplistic and trivial. He’d probably point to his vocal music as his important output. There’s a reason the Canon went largely unnoticed until the 1970s. And speaking as a former cellist, I’m quite happy never to have to play it again. I mean, it’s a nice piece and I don’t have a problem with people liking it, but it really isn’t “great music” by most metrics. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575/363 "2021-08-11T14:10:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I mean, it’s a nice piece and I don’t have a problem with people liking it, but it really isn’t “great music” by most metrics. Pachelbel’s Canon also had the misfortune of being appropriated for a ceaselessly aired TV ad in the 1980s for a “wellness center”. My first wife played flute in several chamber groups and Canon in D was universally referred to by musicians on wedding gigs as “rehab music”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-books-that-no-one-seems-to-like-what-are-we-missing/947575.md?page=19)