# Great Britian vs. United Kingdoms vs. The British Empire **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930 "2009-03-10T07:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/1 "2009-03-10T07:13:58Z")
So a project requires me to go on a spree of reading numerous Wikipedia articles on countries of the world, and after a couple, I notice some countries were said to gain independence from “the British Empire”, while some says “United Kingdoms” and a couple have “Great Britain” 1. Accuracy-wise, is it important to get the exact name right? 2. Are the three equivalent? It’s quite likely that British Empire does not equate to the United Kingdoms; so should countries which gain independence from the British Empire be relabeled. Or does one simply use whatever name was in use at that time? ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/2 "2009-03-10T07:27:45Z")
It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles, consisting of Scotland, England and Wales. Ireland gained independence from Great Britain then, in this sense (whilst Northern Ireland remains part of the British Isles.) All other countries gained independence from the British Empire whilst it existed, so the term is correct for this context. I would personally prefer that over Great Britain (which is interchangeable with United Kingdom, they’re both shortenings of the same thing). The United Kingdom is not the same thing as the British Empire though, the United Kingdom of Great Britain was _part_ of the British Empire, just to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/3 "2009-03-10T07:48:47Z")
> [@](#): > > It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain. hmm think it’s the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland > [@](#): > > Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles, consisting of Scotland, England and Wales. No, the British Isles consist of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (and Isle of Man etc). > [@](#): > > Ireland gained independence from Great Britain then, in this sense (whilst Northern Ireland remains part of the British Isles.) No, all of Ireland remains part of the British Isles. The British isles is more of a geographic term than a political one denoting the islands that lie in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/4 "2009-03-10T09:15:15Z")
I don’t know where you saw the phrase “United Kingdoms”. I have never heard of that one. It’s just “The United Kingdom” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/5 "2009-03-10T09:57:38Z")
> [@CrazyChop](#): > > So a project requires me to go on a spree of reading numerous Wikipedia articles on countries of the world, and after a couple, I notice some countries were said to gain independence from “the British Empire”, while some says “United Kingdoms” and a couple have “Great Britain” > > 1. Accuracy-wise, is it important to get the exact name right? > 2. Are the three equivalent? > > It’s quite likely that British Empire does not equate to the United Kingdoms; so should countries which gain independence from the British Empire be relabeled. Or does one simply use whatever name was in use at that time? I think the confusion here arises from the fact that the Republic of Ireland left the United Kingdom to gain its independence while other former British colonies gained independence from the Empire. The United Kingdom didn’t include India, Pakistan and the various British African colonies but the Empire did. I have never heard the term United Kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/6 "2009-03-10T10:03:58Z")
Apart from the case of Ireland, as **An Gadaí** notes, I think “British Empire” is fine in the context of countries gaining independence, but the other alternatives are not incorrect. Geographical terms: Great Britain - the largest island of the archipelago (but see below) Ireland - the second largest island British Isles - term used in Britain for the entire archipelago Political terms: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland The United Kingdom - abbreviation of the above Great Britain - Abbreviation of the above Britain - Abbreviation of the above England , Scotland, Wales - countries that occupy the island of Great Britain, and are part of the UK Northern Ireland - country on the island of Ireland that forms part of the UK Ireland - independent country occupying most of the island of Ireland The British Empire - old term for Britain and its territories during the colonial era. Term fell out of use ca. 1960. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/7 "2009-03-10T10:07:56Z")
And to add further confusion, the United Kingdom team at the last Olympics was called “Team GB” even though it included athletes from Northern Ireland ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/8 "2009-03-10T10:07:57Z")
Funnily enough, a publisher here in the Republic Of Ireland [claimed it was going to remove reference to the British Isles in its atlases](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-408224/Atlas-wipe-British-Isles-map.html). I cannot verify at present whether they actually did though. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/9 "2009-03-10T10:21:50Z")
The phrase ‘united kingdoms’ can be correct, but only in the terms of a phrase like ‘The united kingdoms of Scotland and England.’ Note the lack of capitalisation. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/10 "2009-03-10T10:55:59Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > No, the British Isles consist of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (and Isle of Man etc). But that’s not what I meant. Great Britain is not the same thing as the British Isles. Great Britain is the largest of the islands that make up the British Isles. (i.e. I meant Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales.) The United Kingdom of Great Britain did not include Northern Ireland exclusively until 1921. That’s a long time after America gained independence for example, so it would be incorrect to say. ‘America gained independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.’ Pedantic I know, but hey. In the last sentence I wrote, I meant Ireland gained independence from the UK of Great Britain, apologies. ---
**Author:** ![tetranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@tetranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tetranz)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/11 "2009-03-10T11:05:35Z")
I was a little disappointed last week to hear Barack Obama refer to Gordon Brown’s country as Great Britain rather than the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/12 "2009-03-10T11:12:26Z")
> [@tetranz](#): > > I was a little disappointed last week to hear Barack Obama refer to Gordon Brown’s country as Great Britain rather than the UK. At least he didn’t call it just “England” as many Americans and other “foreigners” do. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/13 "2009-03-10T11:12:34Z")
Only a pedant would call that incorrect. As noted, even the British often refer to the country, not just the island, as Great Britain. As long as Obama doesn’t call it “England”, I’m fine with that ;). President Bush also usually referred to the country as Great Britain, nothing wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/14 "2009-03-10T11:13:52Z")
> [@tetranz](#): > > I was a little disappointed last week to hear Barack Obama refer to Gordon Brown’s country as Great Britain rather than the UK. I’m not surprised or disappointed. I had a laugh when an American documentary (possibly Dogfights) proudly labelled all of the British Isles as “England” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/15 "2009-03-10T11:18:50Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I’m not surprised or disappointed. I had a laugh when an American documentary (possibly Dogfights) proudly labelled all of the British Isles as “England” 😛 Just like the WW2 German song “We March On England”. This must of been of great comfort to the residents of Wales and Scotland who it seems were not included in the invasion plans! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/16 "2009-03-10T11:23:36Z")
> [@Rayne\_Man](#): > > And to add further confusion, the United Kingdom team at the last Olympics was called “Team GB” even though it included athletes from Northern Ireland Athletes from Northern Ireland are able to opt to represent the British Olympic Asswociation or the Irish Olympic Association, and sports affiliated to the latter operate on an all-Ireland basis. On the naming of the islands, this is useful: [File:British Isles Euler diagram.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Isles_Euler_diagram.svg) > [@Fake Tales of San Francisco](#): > > The United Kingdom of Great Britain did not include Northern Ireland exclusively until 1921. That’s a long time after America gained independence for example, so it would be incorrect to say. ‘America gained independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.’ Pedantic I know, but hey. > > In the last sentence I wrote, I meant Ireland gained independence from the UK of Great Britain, apologies. America gained independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain (which by then controlled Ireland), and Ireland gained independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Easier to just say ‘from Britain’! ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/17 "2009-03-10T12:45:01Z")
Now it makes sense. Did the British Empire just become Great Britain after WWII? I probably made a mistake regarding “United Kingdoms”. (Eyes do get tired after going through 100+ Wikipedia pages…) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/18 "2009-03-10T13:15:21Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Funnily enough, a publisher here in the Republic Of Ireland [claimed it was going to remove reference to the British Isles in its atlases](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-408224/Atlas-wipe-British-Isles-map.html). I cannot verify at present whether they actually did though. Yes, the Irish don’t like the archipelago consisting of Great Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man being called the “British Isles”, presumably because they don’t think the Irish are British. However, I’m not sure what they want to call it. > [@CrazyChop](#): > > Did the British Empire just become Great Britain after WWII? No – the British Empire became the British Commonwealth (or the Commonwealth) over a period starting in 1947 with the independence of India (which became two countries, India and Pakistan). Some Commonwealth countries had become independent earlier, starting with Canada in 1867, but they were regarded as part of the British Empire until that became the Commonwealth. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/19 "2009-03-10T13:22:25Z")
> [@CrazyChop](#): > > Did the British Empire just become Great Britain after WWII? The formal use of ‘Emporer/Empress of India’ disappeared after Indian independence. The British Empire was an umbrella term for various overseas territories - colonies, protectorates, dominions, and so on - but didn’t have a formal designation. The relationship between the United Kingdom and places such as the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands was extended to other territories, and still exists with outposts such as Bermuda and the Falklands. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/20 "2009-03-10T13:36:57Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, the Irish don’t like the archipelago consisting of Great Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man being called the “British Isles”, presumably because they don’t think the Irish are British. However, I’m not sure what they want to call it. Technically, the English aren’t British either. At least, the original usage of that word referred to the Welsh and the Cornish in opposition to the English. That changed around the time of the union with Scotland, to the point that now “British” is often used to mean English to the exclusion of the Welsh. The English Civil War was before the union with Scotland, but a lot of it took place in Wales. In other words, the England / England-and-Wales / Great Britain / U.K. confusion goes back a long, long, long way. On another note, why isn’t the United Kingdom considered an empire anymore? London governs several different nations with their own histories, cultures, languages etc. What is an empire if that isn’t it? Or is it just that they’re too embarassed to call it “a small empire”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930.md?page=2)