# Great Britian vs. United Kingdoms vs. The British Empire **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930 "2009-03-10T07:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/61 "2009-03-10T20:25:48Z")
Oh, “nation” is used outside America to mean “country, independent or not, comprised mostly of a people of that ethnicity.” Part of the reason for the plethora of Grand Dukes, Prince-Electors, Margraves and Landgraves, and such in pre-Napoleonic Germany was that they were all part of the “German nation” which could have only one king, who was also Holy Roman Emperor. Bohemia was the exception, because they were the Czech nation. Several rulers ‘cheated’ – the Margrave of Brandenburg was also the King of Prussia (i.e., the land of the extinct Prussian nation, former East Prussia in more modern times); several Electors of Saxony contrived to be elected King of Poland; the Count of Holstein was King of Denmark; etc. Scotland, Wales, and England are ‘nations’ – political entities mostly comprised of a population of Scottish, Welsh, or English ethnicity – within the country called the United Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/62 "2009-03-10T21:47:33Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Scotland, Wales, and England are ‘nations’ – political entities mostly comprised of a population of Scottish, Welsh, or English ethnicity – within the country called the United Kingdom. It would be more accurate to call them (and Northern Ireland) nations within the _nation-state_ of the United Kingdom. ETA: Which **RickJay** just said. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/63 "2009-03-10T21:55:11Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Just to expand a little on the somewhat confusing overlaps, let me describe myself: > > **Political** > > Nationality: British > Passport issued by: United Kingdom (shown as part of the European Union) > Self-identified as: English > Native language: English > Ancestry: 75% English, 25% Scottish > > **Sport** > > National Soccer team: England (who play Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland) > National Rugby team: England (who play Scotland, Wales and Ireland) > National Olympic team: Great Britain Yes, this can be illuminating. For me: Born in: England Nationalities: Irish & British Passport: Irish, although I could get a British one if I wanted Self-identified as: Irish when anywhere other than Ireland, English when there, and when I’m talking online about things related to Britain. Ancestory, or rather grandparentage: 50% Irish, 25% Welsh, 25% English Football: England, then Ireland, couldn’t give a toss about Wales Rugby: England, then Wales, then Ireland ---
**Author:** ![put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/put_down_the_sabre)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/64 "2009-03-10T23:50:40Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain. > > Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles, consisting of Scotland, England and Wales. Ireland gained independence from Great Britain then, in this sense (whilst Northern Ireland remains part of the British Isles.) > > All other countries gained independence from the British Empire whilst it existed, so the term is correct for this context. I would personally prefer that over Great Britain (which is interchangeable with United Kingdom, they’re both shortenings of the same thing). The United Kingdom is not the same thing as the British Empire though, the United Kingdom of Great Britain was _part_ of the British Empire, just to clarify. An impressive display of ignorance, but thankfully corrected by the other posters. pdts ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/65 "2009-03-11T10:41:39Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, this can be illuminating. For me: > > Born in: England > Nationalities: Irish & British > Passport: Irish, although I could get a British one if I wanted > Self-identified as: Irish when anywhere other than Ireland, English when there, and when I’m talking online about things related to Britain. > Ancestory, or rather grandparentage: 50% Irish, 25% Welsh, 25% English > Football: England, then Ireland, couldn’t give a toss about Wales > Rugby: England, then Wales, then Ireland Can I confuse things please? Born in: England Nationality: British (although now qualify for Swedish if I so wish) Passport: British Self-identified as: **British** Ancestry: Father from England, Mother from Scotland. Mother’s family splits into bits from Scotland and others from Northern Ireland. Judging by my name my Father’s family probably eventually has connections to Scotland. Football: England, then Scotland. Will always support a country from the British Isles when playing a non-British Isles country. Rugby, England, then Scotland. Will always support a country from the British Isles when playing a non-British Isles country. I never, ever refer to myself as English despite having being born there, lived there until I was 25 and having an English accent. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/66 "2009-03-11T11:18:30Z")
> [@put\_down\_the\_sabre](#): > > An impressive display of ignorance, but thankfully corrected by the other posters. > > pdts There was nothing ignorant about that post, I simply was not specific enough with my words. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/67 "2009-03-11T11:23:07Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > There was nothing ignorant about that post, I simply was not specific enough with my words. ‘It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain.’ ‘Ireland gained independence from Great Britain…’ ‘All other countries gained independence from the British Empire…’ ‘…Great Britain (which is interchangeable with United Kingdom)…’ Sorry, but these are errors, not a lack of specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/68 "2009-03-11T11:41:33Z")
Just to join in; Born in: England Nationalities: British Passport: British (EU Passport) Self-identified as: British, technically. Even though i’m pretty much entirely English by culture, that half my family are Scottish makes me wary of going solely by English. Ancestory, or rather grandparentage: 50% English, 50% Scottish. Football: England, Scotland, Wales have a football team now? Rugby: Honestly i’m afraid I don’t care. Also I put my vote forwards that the cover note for the British passport is simply impressive-sounding. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/69 "2009-03-11T13:57:13Z")
My 2 pennorth. Born in England Nationality: British Passport: British (EU) Self identified: English Ancestory: Great great Grandad was from Germany but we ignore that 🙂 call me 99% English Football: England, don’t care about the rest Rugby: Couldn’t care less, same with cricket ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/70 "2009-03-11T14:19:57Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, this can be illuminating. For me: > > Born in: England > Nationalities: Irish & British > Passport: Irish, although I could get a British one if I wanted > Self-identified as: Irish when anywhere other than Ireland, English when there, and when I’m talking online about things related to Britain. > Ancestory, or rather grandparentage: 50% Irish, 25% Welsh, 25% English > Football: England, then Ireland, couldn’t give a toss about Wales > Rugby: England, then Wales, then Ireland Born in: Northern Ireland Nationalities: Irish & British Passport: Irish, although I could get a British one if I wanted Self-identified as: Northern Irish Ancestory: 100% Irish as of my grandparents, with Scottish ancestry creeping in the further back you go Football: Don’t really watch it, but it’s nice to see Northern Ireland winning, or even scoring against a team of furriners Rugby: Devoid of nationalities for me, players and spectators fall under the same broad (negative) stereotype 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/71 "2009-03-11T14:38:32Z")
Born in: England Nationalities: British, American Passport: UK Self-identified as: Confused Ancestry: Indian (dots, not feathers) Football: En-ger-land! Rugby: Wales (Don’t ask… Neil Jenkins was my hero) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/72 "2009-03-11T15:14:05Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > On another note, why isn’t the United Kingdom considered an empire anymore? London governs several different nations with their own histories, cultures, languages etc. What is an empire if that isn’t it? Or is it just that they’re too embarassed to call it “a small empire”? Officially, it was only entitled to use the word “empire” nominally (as opposed to descriptively) during the time its monarch held the title “Emperor/Empress of India.” When there’s no emperor/empress, there’s no empire. > [@tetranz](#): > > I was a little disappointed last week to hear Barack Obama refer to Gordon Brown’s country as Great Britain rather than the UK. This has been addressed in other posts, but it seem to me that it’s pretty common _in Britain_ to refer to the country as “Britain” or “Great Britain.” In fact the ISO abbreviation for the United Kingdom is “GB.” > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How come nobody ever gives the Frisians their props? Frisians? I don’t recall there being a major migration of Frisians to Britain. Do you mean Danes? > [@Chronos](#): > > The way I had always heard it explained was that England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland are each countries, but not nations. A country is territory. A nation is people. A state is a territory ruled by an autonomous government. A nation-state is a state that rules a defined set of people in a defined territory. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/73 "2009-03-11T15:16:59Z")
Born in: The Republic Of Ireland Nationality: Irish Passport: Rep. Of Ireland Self-identified as: Irish, then European, then a global citizen 🙂 Ancestry: Irish for the most part, a bit of Scots Football: No interest Rugby: Even less interest I’ve heard it said that when Ireland is playing any team other than England then the English support Ireland and that when England is playing any team other than Ireland the Irish support the other team. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/74 "2009-03-11T15:19:00Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Frisians? I don’t recall there being a major migration of Frisians to Britain. Do you mean Danes? Probably because you weren’t born yet. 😉 The Frisians showed up in Britain at the same time as the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. There just weren’t as many of them as there were Angles and Saxons, so they tend to be mentioned less. In fact, British History textbooks (and teachers) always mention them in that order when explaining the Germanic migrations to Britain: “Angles, Saxons, Jutes… and Frisians”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/75 "2009-03-11T15:54:28Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Officially, it was only entitled to use the word “empire” nominally (as opposed to descriptively) during the time its monarch held the title “Emperor/Empress of India.” When there’s no emperor/empress, there’s no empire. Not necessarily. “Empire” has more than one meaning, and is not restricted to the territory ruled by an emperor. See, for instance, the definition at [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > –noun > > 1. a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/76 "2009-03-11T16:06:30Z")
**Northern Piper** , I refer you to my use of the words “officially,” “nominally,” and “descriptively.” Britain commanded “an empire” so long as it ruled over multiple nations. But it was “the British Empire” only from 1876 to 1947, when the monarch held the title “Emperor/Empress of India.” Note that all the examples of regimes using the word empire in their names listed in your definition all had persons holding the title “emperor” or its equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/77 "2009-03-11T16:07:48Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > A country is territory. A nation is people. A state is a territory ruled by an autonomous government. A nation-state is a state that rules a defined set of people in a defined territory. What about British territories? Places like the Isle of Man or Bermuda tick all the boxes for all four of your definitions…but aren’t countries. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/78 "2009-03-11T16:31:47Z")
Or Hong Kong (obviously no longer applicable), the Falklands, the various Caribbean islands that nominally remain British territories, , Gibraltar, etc. In the loosest sense, “empire” refers to any nation-state with overseas possessions. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/79 "2009-03-11T17:01:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In the loosest sense, “empire” refers to any nation-state with overseas possessions. Except that there’s only one nation-state that still has an emperor, which is Japan. Japan has no overseas possessions (unless you count Okinawa, which is close to the Japanese archipelago, and is fully integrated into Japan administratively, so is no longer a “possession”). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/80 "2009-03-11T17:12:05Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > ‘It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain.’ > ‘Ireland gained independence from Great Britain…’ > ‘All other countries gained independence from the British Empire…’ > ‘…Great Britain (which is interchangeable with United Kingdom)…’ > > Sorry, but these are errors, not a lack of specifics. I’d agree that those are errors but to be fair they’re not uncommon ones, and I don’t think they entail any intentional disrespect for Northern Ireland: 1, 2 and 3 stem from a common misconception, certainly here in England, that ‘Great Britain’ can be used as a short name for the UK. And that misconception is not borne out of malice or an arrogant disregard for Northern Ireland, it’s simply because people think that’s a valid short name for our whole country (not just the island of England, Scotland and Wales), in the same way that ‘the UK’ is. > [@](#): > > I’ve heard it said that when Ireland is playing any team other than England then the English support Ireland and that when England is playing any team other than Ireland the Irish support the other team. It’s odd isn’t it? Here in England we love the Irish, but they ‘hate’ us, and we don’t even seem to realize. English people (jokingly) hate the Scots, the Welsh, the French, the Germans and the Australians - who all merrily hate us back - and we’ll crack jokes about Americans all day long. But we love the Irish, even though they not only seem to hate us in the same jokey-way, but a fair few Irish people still harbor genuine resentment against the English (me and some friends were given fierce glances and mutterings of ‘fuck off’ from some locals in a pub in Dublin on account of our English accents). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930.md?page=5)