# Great Britian vs. United Kingdoms vs. The British Empire **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930 "2009-03-10T07:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/81 "2009-03-11T17:21:11Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I’ve heard it said that when Ireland is playing any team other than England then the English support Ireland and that when England is playing any team other than Ireland the Irish support the other team. The same is true if you substitute Ireland for Scotland or Wales. Amusingly, I have found that Scots find it insulting that England fans want them to win. Their argument seems to go along the lines of “it is patronising” which is just bollocks. We simply want you to win. I mean lets cover that again, their are significant numbers of Scotland fans that think England fans wanting to win is somehow insulting to Scotland. When you are dealing with that sort of logic then you may as well give up. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/82 "2009-03-11T17:24:26Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > I’d agree that those are errors but to be fair they’re not uncommon ones, and I don’t think they entail any intentional disrespect for Northern Ireland: 1, 2 and 3 stem from a common misconception, certainly here in England, that ‘Great Britain’ can be used as a short name for the UK. And that misconception is not borne out of malice or an arrogant disregard for Northern Ireland, it’s simply because people think that’s a valid short name for our whole country (not just the island of England, Scotland and Wales), in the same way that ‘the UK’ is. Not an arrogant disregard, no, but ignorance of the multitude of various terms, both current and historical, can cause people to be inaccurate inadvertently, and this is what I see in **Fake Tales of San Francisco** ’s post (and subsequent explanation). > [@](#): > > It’s odd isn’t it? Here in England we love the Irish, but they ‘hate’ us, and we don’t even seem to realize. It’s not just the English who have this infatuation with the stereotype of Ireland and the Irish, it’s a worldwide phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/83 "2009-03-11T17:26:51Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Amusingly, I have found that Scots find it insulting that England fans want them to win. Their argument seems to go along the lines of “it is patronising” which is just bollocks. We simply want you to win. I mean lets cover that again, their are significant numbers of Scotland fans that think England fans wanting to win is somehow insulting to Scotland. > > When you are dealing with that sort of logic then you may as well give up. Even more amusing is when their stance is one you’d take against glory-hunters. Because Scotland’s such an obvious choice for fickle fair-weather friends :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/84 "2009-03-11T17:30:20Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I mean lets cover that again, their are significant numbers of Scotland fans that think England fans wanting to win is somehow insulting to Scotland. That should have read " I mean lets cover that again, there are significant numbers of Scotland fans that think England fans wanting **Scotland** to win is somehow insulting to Scotland." Unfortunately I seem to have missed the edit deadline. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/85 "2009-03-11T17:37:56Z")
Necessary Trainspotting quote: _“Some people hate the English. I don’t, they’re just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonised by wankers.”_😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/86 "2009-03-11T17:38:40Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > But we love the Irish, even though they not only seem to hate us in the same jokey-way, but a fair few Irish people still harbor genuine resentment against the English (me and some friends were given fierce glances and mutterings of ‘fuck off’ from some locals in a pub in Dublin on account of our English accents). I think this might have something to do with economics; remember, it wasn’t all that long ago that Ireland was among Europe’s poorest countries. The whole “Gaelic Tiger” thing has changed that, of course, but I think people (everywhere) still have this romantic impression of Ireland as a place full of happy drunk peasant farmers wearing homespun clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/87 "2009-03-11T17:42:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think this might have something to do with economics; remember, it wasn’t all that long ago that Ireland was among Europe’s poorest countries. The whole “Gaelic Tiger” thing has changed that, of course, but I think people (everywhere) still have this romantic impression of Ireland as a place full of happy drunk peasant farmers wearing homespun clothes. I am afraid that the “Gaelic Tiger” is no more (at least for the moment). Ireland is suffering from one of the deepest resections in the whole of Europe ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/88 "2009-03-11T17:55:21Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > The same is true if you substitute Ireland for Scotland or Wales. (That when playing 3rd parties, English people will want them to win, but they’ll always want to England to lose) Are you being serious? In my experience every English person I know takes gleeful delight in watching Wales or Scotland lose. When I was watching Wales-France in the rugby a couple weeks ago the pub didn’t really know who to cheer for because we were all desperate for both sides to lose! I suppose you probably get some English people who’ll support Wales or Scotland against foreign countries simply because they’re British, but in general the attitude English people have towards the Scots and Welsh is very different to the one we have for the Irish. We treat the Scots and Welsh like Americans treat Canada, whereas we treat Irish exactly like Americans treat the Irish. (If someone introduced themselves in England as Welsh they’d probably get ‘oh God. I’m sorry mate, chin up’ etc. If they said they were Irish they’d probably elicit jealousy if anything!) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/89 "2009-03-11T18:04:58Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > (If someone introduced themselves in England as Welsh they’d probably get ‘oh God. I’m sorry mate, chin up’ etc. If they said they were Irish they’d probably elicit jealousy if anything!) …after everyone was finished telling “Paddy and Mick” jokes. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/90 "2009-03-11T18:10:51Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > Are you being serious? Yes. The occasional experience you have had may be against the norm, but in general what I wrote is true. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/91 "2009-03-11T18:11:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …after everyone was finished telling “Paddy and Mick” jokes. Maybe if it is was the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/92 "2009-03-11T18:37:30Z")
> [@Rayne\_Man](#): > > I am afraid that the “Gaelic Tiger” is no more (at least for the moment). Ireland is suffering from one of the deepest resections in the whole of Europe The Gaelic Tiger is what the ladies call me 😉 . The Celtic Tiger is indeed dead though, ☹ no more organic latte SUVs. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/93 "2009-03-11T18:39:11Z")
😛 > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …after everyone was finished telling “Paddy and Mick” jokes. Did you hear the one about the Englishman, Irishman and the Scotsman who walked into this bar? Go on, finish it, I dare you 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/94 "2009-03-11T18:40:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > The Gaelic Tiger is what the ladies call me 😉 . The Celtic Tiger is indeed dead though, ☹ no more organic latte SUVs. Celtic, Gaelic, whatever. Anyway, you’ll always have the memories. Also, _Riverdance_. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/95 "2009-03-11T18:55:42Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > What about British territories? Places like the Isle of Man or Bermuda tick all the boxes for all four of your definitions…but aren’t countries. My definitions speak to the “country but not a nation” line. They weren’t meant to be all encompassing. But if you want to engage that issue, just for fun, I think there’s room to argue that there aren’t autonomous governments there or even that they are, indeed, countries. Historically, people often referred to any swath of territory as a “country.” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/96 "2009-03-11T19:01:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Celtic, Gaelic, whatever. Anyway, you’ll always have the memories. Also, _Riverdance_. I’ll be able to buy a house too so I’m not so bothered! ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/97 "2009-03-11T20:20:23Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > 😛 > > Did you hear the one about the Englishman, Irishman and the Scotsman who walked into this bar? > > Go on, finish it, I dare you 😛 And the barman said, “Don’t you need a Welshman for this kind of joke?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/98 "2009-03-11T20:27:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In the true sense of those terms, they are countries AND nations. Generally speaking, “country” refers (or should refer) a geographically distinct entity, and “nation” refers to a distinct population. Good explanation. What I wonder about is the use of the word “nationality”. As in, “the Austro-Hungarian Empire was home to a variety of nationalities.” How is it different from “nations”? Of course, “nationality” is also often used as a near-synonym of “citizenship”. > [@](#): > > Quebec could also be said to be a country, though I don’t usually hear that usage. I hear it sometimes, usually when mentioning Quebec along other countries, if it wouldn’t make sense to use “Canada” instead. For example, “a group of French-speaking countries including France, Cameroon and Quebec have signed \” assuming the Government of Quebec and not the Government of Canada is part to the agreement. Or from [here](http://angryfrenchguy.com/2009/02/24/quebec-has-no-colour-tv/): > [@](#): > > Québec’s TV industry is huge. For a country it’s [sic] size, with a potential public of only a a [sic] few million viewers, most of whom understand English and are perfectly able to tune in to the American TV networks that make up at least half of the channels of any cable subscription, the vitality of Québec’s TV is simply astonishing. Again, here Quebec’s (not very well-known elsewhere in Canada, or else “Canada” would be more accurate) television industry is implicitly compared to other countries’. > [@amanset](#): > > Amusingly, I have found that Scots find it insulting that England fans want them to win. Their argument seems to go along the lines of “it is patronising” which is just bollocks. Interestingly, I think I understand the sentiment. I’m sure you don’t intend to be patronizing, but I understand how it could give this impression. I find it hard to explain, though. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/99 "2009-03-11T21:24:56Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Of course, “nationality” is also often used as a near-synonym of “citizenship”. Both terms can have specific legal definitions, depending on the jurisdiction, as demonstrated by [this page](http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/aboutcitizenship/), which _'explains what British citizenship is, and what other types of British nationality there are._ ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930/100 "2009-03-11T22:09:29Z")
It’s “United Kingdom,” singular. Scotland & England are two countries, one kingdom. Traditionally, Great Britain (the island) includes Britain (Latin _Britannia_) & Caledonia. Britannia was ruled by the Romans, Caledonia was not. Modern Britain includes the countries of England & Wales, which were once the Kingdom of England. Modern Caledonia is called Scotland. The state that includes all of them & Northern Ireland is,“the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” It can be called the United Kingdom or UK for short; but many from outside the British Isles refer to it as “Great Britain;” or just “Britain,” indicating the main part. Some would even just say “England” after the most populous country in the UK & center of political power. Or, what [Ximenean said.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10921781&postcount=6) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-britian-vs-united-kingdoms-vs-the-british-empire/488930.md?page=6)