# Great, CDC putting J&J Vaccine on hold because of clotting- I just got it Sunday **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [April 13, 2021, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903 "2021-04-13T11:20:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/62 "2021-04-14T01:11:52Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > There’s a decent bet that more than 6 people have been severely injured or killed during their drive to/from their vaccinations, regardless of the vaccine type. Disregarding demographics etc., driving 100 miles give you about the same risk of death as getting a blood clot from the J&J vaccine (1 in a million). I quite like that - it gives reasonable intuition about the order of magnitude of the risk. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/63 "2021-04-14T02:37:21Z")
I wonder if pressure socks like are recommended when flying would prevent the clots? Traditionally, blood clots form in the leg, then depending on which leg can travel thru your heart (or worse block your heart) to lodge in the lungs, or in worse cases go to your brain. My clots lodged in both lungs, so at least some travelled thru my heart (leading some to call me heartless). At least one of the clots in my lungs felt like someone had jabbed a knitting needle into my chest and was wrenching it around. Not sure if this is what the J&J clots do though… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/64 "2021-04-14T04:59:19Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > My clots lodged in both lungs, so at least some travelled thru my heart (leading some to call me heartless). Your clots could have originated from your heart and have been caused by atrial fibrillation. That is an arterial clot vs a venous clot. This is what I had and spent weeks in the hospital getting the clots removed from my heart and leg. I just had the J&J and am concerned over any issues related to blood thinners. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/65 "2021-04-14T13:53:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > Furthermore, the second dose is generally being administered within the supposedly optimum 21 days, > > It’s not an “optimum” 21 days. It’s just the number of days that happened to be studied in the trials that led to the US EUA. They didn’t try other time periods to determine what was best. They just picked something soon-but-hopefully-not-too-soon so as to have data as fast as possible. > > My guess is that when the dust settles and we have more information about the optimal timing, it will turn out to be more than 3 weeks. But the US is going with 3 weeks because that’s ACTUALLY BEEN TESTED and we know it looked good enough. Right, “optimum” wasn’t the best word. However **[the CDC is still saying “2-dose series separated by 21 days”](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/index.html)** for the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. Elsewhere they say “at least” 21 days, and also that “If it is not feasible to adhere to the recommended interval, you may schedule the second dose up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose; there is limited efficacy data beyond this window”. So it appears that there is data for efficacy up to 6 weeks between shots, but not further. This appears to be dated information, though (or at least a very conservative guidance) because advisory committees in both the UK and Canada are advising that much longer periods are acceptable; in some provinces in Canada, as long as four months. My point was that this is mainly being done to allow as many people as possible to at least get the first shot, even though the long waiting period may be less than ideal, because it produces the best overall outcome in light of vaccine shortages. It’s certainly less than ideal in terms of increased vulnerability due to the long period without full protection. Whereas the US has enough vaccine apparently that people are routinely getting it in the 21-day interval. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/66 "2021-04-14T17:44:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > This appears to be dated information, though (or at least a very conservative guidance) because advisory committees in both the UK and Canada are advising that much longer periods are acceptable; in some provinces in Canada, as long as four months. The guidance, and data, are different for the Oxford/Astra Zeneca vaccine than for the mRNA vaccines. As I noted in post 59, AZ actually tested different 2nd dose timing, and observed increased ultimate efficacy with a longer delay. Pfizer and Moderna only have a little data that suggests that the protection of the first dose hasn’t begun to wane within 42 days. Pfizer and Moderna have not been in favor of altering the dose spacing. Oxford/AZ generally has supported it. Note that in both the AZ vaccine and the mRNA vaccines, the person is less protected until they get the second dose. For AZ, the delay appears to be a trade-off for greater efficacy after the 2nd shot. I don’t think there’s been a shift among the experts on this. There is a split about what the best policy is. Here’s an article with opinions from 2 experts who have differing opinions on it. > **[This startup from a small city in Oregon wants to revolutionize the metal...](https://www.geekwire.com/2019/ampere-scientific/)** > > Disruptive technology is embraced in sectors where customers are eager to tear up and replace old models for doing business. That's not so much the case And another article that puts you in the position of having to make the policy decision. [https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMclde2101987](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMclde2101987) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/67 "2021-04-15T02:02:01Z")
I wonder (IANA doctor, so take it with a grain of salt) if the clotting associated with both vaccines is somehow related to the weird blood clotting issues with actually catching COVID- maybe they’re all some kind of immune system reaction? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/68 "2021-04-15T02:22:27Z")
Here’s some informed commentary that may help answer that question: [https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/04/14/vaccine-side-effects-q-and-a](https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/04/14/vaccine-side-effects-q-and-a) ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/69 "2021-04-17T12:15:45Z")
It’s a million to one odds based on the entire seven million population who got the vaccine, but there’s no evidence that the odds are the same for the separate groups in that population. It looks to me that everyone who had a blood clot was a pre-menopausal woman. What percentage of the seven million did that group make up? If they were 25% of the vaccinated, then the odds for them are only one in 250,000. That group may have been even less than 25% of the population considering that the vaccinated people tend to skew to the post menopausal ages. If they were only 10% of the seven million it might make sense to continue vaccinating men and older women with J&J and steer younger women towards the Pfizer and Moderna. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/70 "2021-04-27T16:33:08Z")
Some good information from a doctor and public health expert who took part in the J&J trial. This doctor is advising women under 50 to get a different vaccine if it is available to them, and if there aren’t reasons to get the J&J vaccine specifically. I’ve quoted a lot, but there’s more good info in there – worth reading. > [@](#): > > **Wen:** This is not a run-of-the mill blood clot. The clotting disorder, TTS, that’s believed to be associated with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, is a combination of blood clots and thrombocytopenia, or low platelets. This combination is extremely rare, and it’s very serious. [Out of the 15 women](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-04-23/03-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf) who developed TTS, three have died. Seven are still in the hospital, and four are in critical condition. It’s not accurate to compare TTS with the normal kind of blood clot, or deep vein thrombosis. > > In addition, the risk of TTS may be 15 out of 8 million when we look at the population, but [the CDC projected](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-04-23/06-COVID-Oliver-508.pdf) that there would be 13 cases of TTS in a million if we’re looking at the very specific population of women less than 50 years old. That’s 1 in 80,000. > [@](#): > > CNN: Why is it that younger women seem to be more affected? Does it have to do with women being on birth control pills? > > Wen: These are good questions. This is part of why the initial pause was done by federal health officials, to investigate whether the initial six women had something in common. Here’s what we know. Of the 15 women with TTS after this vaccine, 13 were between the ages of 18 and 49. The largest cluster in terms of age was in the mid-to-late 30s, with a median age of 37. > > CNN: Are we sure this is related to the J&J vaccine? > > Wen: We don’t know the exact cause, but there are two reasons why this appears to be associated with the vaccine. First, TTS is extremely rare. Again, it’s not like DVTs, the normal blood clot, which are pretty common in the population. To see a cluster like this, where the only commonality is recently receiving this vaccine, suggests a link. > > Second, TTS is also seen as a rare side effect associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine. Both of these vaccines use a similar platform, the adenoviral vector platform. It seems likely that TTS is indeed associated with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. [https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/27/health/women-johnson-johnson-vaccine-wellness/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/27/health/women-johnson-johnson-vaccine-wellness/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/71 "2021-04-27T17:24:13Z")
Not that anyone was holding their breath in anticipation, but as the OP I’m happy to say that it’s day 16 so I’m out of the supposed 6-15 day brain clot window. Not that I was ever very concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/72 "2021-04-27T23:07:35Z")
I thought it was 3 weeks and just mentioned it to my kid, who was horrified that it was even a possibility. I neglected to mention that it’s not impossible for me to throw a clot, but just for vax reasons. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/73 "2021-04-28T01:50:03Z")
All of the known cases have been within 15 days. The article I posted said to be vigilant about it for 3 weeks. Tough I suppose one should always be vigilant for the major symptoms. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903/74 "2021-04-28T23:11:42Z")
whoops my post should say “just NOT for vax reasons.” I hit my 3 weeks yesterday, which is why I was like “yay I made it even though I wasn’t worried.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-cdc-putting-j-j-vaccine-on-hold-because-of-clotting-i-just-got-it-sunday/939903.md?page=3)