# Great column on ground water today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 5, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862 "2007-01-05T21:03:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/1 "2007-01-05T21:03:34Z")
[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070105.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070105.html) I really enjoyed the parts on the underground rivers and their formations. I was happy to see Cecil address the using up of a limited resource as far as some ancient aquifers. > [@](#): > > As you’re drilling, though, remember that aquifers don’t necessarily refill quickly. Many large ones contain glacial runoff from the last ice age or earlier — some water under the Sahara desert predates 38,000 BC. Alarmingly, Libya is tapping the large Saharan aquifers for its Great Man-Made River project, which supplies 6.5 million cubic meters of water daily. Jared Diamond, in his book Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed (2005), calls the plundering of essentially nonrenewable water resources “mining,” and it’s not just those crazy Libyans who are doing it. The High Plains aquifer is being depleted at approximately a foot a year, with rainfall recharge averaging less than an inch per year. In some parts of Kansas the groundwater level has fallen more than 100 feet since the 1930s. Pumpage has caused 11,000 square kilometers in California’s San Joaquin Valley to sink at least a foot, and some sites more than 20 feet. Not to sound alarmist, but this can’t go on. This is a huge problem is some areas. I know that in Australia, there is a major water problem and there is currently a fight between some of the natives, the scrub ranchers and some hideously wasteful desert resorts. So many communities around the world never think about the future. Jim ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/2 "2007-01-05T21:52:50Z")
Nitpick: “Karst” is not a type of rock (as Cecil implied), but rather a collection of geomorphological features which tend to form where limestone or related rocks are chemically weathered. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/3 "2007-01-05T22:49:11Z")
An excellent column, aside from a couple of geological gaffs. The depletion of underground aquifers is a (perhaps the) major environmental calamity that nobody seems to talk about; certainly Al Gore and his ilk, while railing on about the dangers of global climate change (which, while detrimental in effect, may or may not be experienced on the scope predicted and can be dealt with regardless) have almost completely disregarded both the infrastructure and the ground structure effects of aquifer depletion. Without water to drink, to processes food, to provide sanitation, and to support the ground, we sink and die. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/4 "2007-01-06T13:55:59Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] This is a huge problem is some areas. I know that in Australia, there is a major water problem and there is currently a fight between some of the natives, the scrub ranchers and some hideously wasteful desert resorts. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I’ve heard about this. Do tell. I’ve never heard of “desert resorts” being a significant water waste problem. Certainly the thousands of bores drilled to water cattle and left to free flow are hugely wasteful. I’ve never heard that it is the indigenous population that are fighting the issue from one side or the other particularly. ---
**Author:** ![essell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/34f0e0/32.png) [@essell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essell)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/5 "2007-01-06T14:48:09Z")
If all this water is being removed the from water table it’s gotta go somewhere. The volumes Cecil mentions are pretty significant. Assuming the water isn’t hanging around on the surface, I wonder what effect it’s having on sea levels? And if thats a factor in rising sea levels blamed on global warming? Are we talking volumes high enough to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/6 "2007-01-06T18:26:10Z")
[QUOTE=essell] Assuming the water isn’t hanging around on the surface, I wonder what effect it’s having on sea levels? And if thats a factor in rising sea levels blamed on global warming? Are we talking volumes high enough to do that? [/QUOTE] In a word, no. However, subsidence can cause low lying areas to sink further, making them more prone to flooding in general. The areas most at risk for flooding due to rising average sea levels are typically at or often below sea level to begin with. These areas are typically coastal and lack a significant potable water ground table anyway. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/7 "2007-01-06T20:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=JKellyMap] Nitpick: “Karst” is not a type of rock (as Cecil implied), but rather a collection of geomorphological features which tend to form where limestone or related rocks are chemically weathered. [/QUOTE] This was what we were attempting to convey, perhaps unsuccessfully, with the construction “hollowed-out limestone or other soluble bedrock.” ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/8 "2007-01-06T20:41:32Z")
The aquifers in Manhattan all completely dried out a century ago. Now we have to plunder our water from upstate. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/9 "2007-01-06T21:34:19Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] I’m not sure I’ve heard about this. Do tell. I’ve never heard of “desert resorts” being a significant water waste problem. Certainly the thousands of bores drilled to water cattle and left to free flow are hugely wasteful. I’ve never heard that it is the indigenous population that are fighting the issue from one side or the other particularly. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I cannot help you out. It was in a Scientific America Magazine from half a year ago or so. I do not know the month and I am choosing to be lazy and not find it. If you wish to dismiss it, please do so. Jim ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/10 "2007-01-07T00:36:19Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] The aquifers in Manhattan all completely dried out a century ago. Now we have to plunder our water from upstate. [/QUOTE] I’m sure I heard of people tapping into the aquifer under Manhattan which exempts them from water restrictions rules when implemented. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/11 "2007-01-07T16:40:10Z")
[QUOTE=Ed Zotti] This was what we were attempting to convey, perhaps unsuccessfully, with the construction “hollowed-out limestone or other soluble bedrock.” [/QUOTE] Got it! I see now that “karst” is meant to modify the entire phrase “typically hollowed-out limestone or other soluble bedrock,” and is _not_ meant to be a second example of “…enough rock” (the first example being “limestone”). By its position at the end of the same comma-delimited phrase as “limestone,” and by its being immediately after the word “bedrock,” I took it to mean the latter. Still, a reply from Ed himself…I am not worthy! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/12 "2007-01-08T23:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] I’m not sure I’ve heard about this. Do tell. I’ve never heard of “desert resorts” being a significant water waste problem. . [/QUOTE] I think this concept refers mainly to things like golf courses and other temperate zone landscaping that sucks up a lot of water and is incongruent with desert environments. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/13 "2007-01-09T00:37:08Z")
…such as greater Los Angeles? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/14 "2007-01-09T00:49:29Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] …such as greater Los Angeles? [/QUOTE] Actually on that subject, I believe California suffers more water waste from the rice farms and cattle farms in the deserts than from LA. It might be worth looking up. California had some interesting water rules that I think are still in effect. It made it cost effective to grow rice in the desert. Jim ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/15 "2007-01-09T02:10:00Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Actually on that subject, I believe California suffers more water waste from the rice farms and cattle farms in the deserts than from LA. It might be worth looking up. California had some interesting water rules that I think are still in effect. It made it cost effective to grow rice in the desert. Jim [/QUOTE] Rice farms in WHAT California desert? 😕😕 They grow rice in the San Juaquin/Sacramento Rivers delta. Not in the desert. Now, they DO grow alfalfa in the desert. And, technically, a whole lot more in what is nominally desert by definition, though not desert in actual appearance. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/16 "2007-01-09T14:09:06Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Rice farms in WHAT California desert? 😕😕 They grow rice in the San Juaquin/Sacramento Rivers delta. Not in the desert. Now, they DO grow alfalfa in the desert. And, technically, a whole lot more in what is nominally desert by definition, though not desert in actual appearance. [/QUOTE] It looks like the ‘Rice in the Desert’ is an exaggeration on my part, but there does appear to be a large amount of water being poured into the rice growing in California. The federal water subsidy did allow for massive agriculture projects and the rice alone consumes as much as LA does. > [@](#): > > About 2.2 million acre feet of water is used to grow rice each year in the Sacramento Bay Delta, which equates to about the same amount of water used by 10 million city dwellers in Los Angeles (an acre foot of water is football size field of water one foot high and supports about 2 families per year). The web resources to back this up is not readily available. Here are two pertinent links related to the agricultural use of water vs. city use. [http://www.pacinst.org/publications/essays\_and\_opinion/cvp\_op-ed\_response.htm](http://www.pacinst.org/publications/essays_and_opinion/cvp_op-ed_response.htm) [The Greening of the California Desert](http://www.henrygeorge.org/caldes.htm) Maybe \*\*Cecil \*\* would be willing to give us the \*\*Straight Dope \*\* on this issue, both historical and current. Jim ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/17 "2007-01-09T16:51:03Z")
Some folks, including novelist Carl Hiassen, have asserted that the continuous population growth of the state of Florida will (soon or eventually) overcome the aquifer’s capacity to provide water. How realistic is that assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/18 "2007-01-09T17:31:33Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Some folks, including novelist Carl Hiassen, have asserted that the continuous population growth of the state of Florida will (soon or eventually) overcome the aquifer’s capacity to provide water. How realistic is that assertion? [/QUOTE] I don’t know the details, but it seems quite possible. Despite the rainfall, Florida’s low elevation and proximity to the ocean probably means it has only shallow freshwater aquifers. The only real solution to this problem (other than massive population dieoffs) is to develop a method of cheap and efficient ocean water desalination and pipe the water (uphill) inland for irrigation and potable use. Existing supplies can be stretched considerably by more efficient use and conservation, but ultimately it’s an unsustainable (even if renewable) natural resource at current and future population levels and demand. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/19 "2007-01-09T17:32:57Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Maybe \*\*Cecil \*\* would be willing to give us the \*\*Straight Dope \*\* on this issue, both historical and current. [/QUOTE] Submit it as a Cecil/Mailbag question to **Dex** and I’m sure someone will get the drop on it. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862/20 "2007-01-09T19:48:47Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Submit it as a Cecil/Mailbag question to **Dex** and I’m sure someone will get the drop on it. Stranger [/QUOTE] Thank you, I did just did. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-column-on-ground-water-today/386862.md?page=2)