# Great fantasy epic writers: why all British? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037 "2004-06-07T02:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/41 "2004-06-08T22:54:49Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > Huge list of Americans before, I would have figured one of the following two reasons: > > 1. Americans make up the greater bulk of well-known science fiction authors and typically write more of that \ China Mieville, Iain Banks, Peter F Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds… One more for the list of epic American fantasy writers: Steven Erikson, author of the goddamn enormous Malazan Book of the Fallen. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/42 "2004-06-08T23:27:11Z")
If “Americans make up the **greater bulk** of well-known science fiction authors” how in the world does naming four names invalidate this? This is a huge pet peeve of mine. If people correctly modify an absolute, then they **already know** that there are a few exceptions. You can’t waltz in, name the exceptions, and then preen as if you’ve scored a point. FYI, it just makes you look really, really bad. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/43 "2004-06-09T01:29:01Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > My tuppence: > Accepting ‘classic’ as ‘likely to be read for years to come’, then if by ‘epic fantasy’ you mean ‘in exactly the same vein as Tolkien, Lewis and T.H. White’ then, well, there aren’t any Americans like that, but then again, there aren’t any other Britishers like that – you’ve kind of defined the genre narrowly enough to exclude everyone else. Except that I haven’t defined the genre that way at all - and i didn’t even mention T.H. White (I don’t think he fits the “'epic” part anyway, but then I haven’t read much of his work, so if I’m wrong, please feel free to provide counterexamples). I defined it as “fantasy epics with healthy doses of mythology.” So depending on how you define mythology, it will exclude a lot of the things that people have mentioned above which are more in the sci-fi vein (how can it be mythological if it takes place in the future?) and possibly some of the more historically-oriented stuff (depending on whether you believe, say, that the Arthurian legends are more deeply rooted in historical fact than I think is the norm). But I really had not intednded to make this into a U.S./U.K. literary pissing match, by any means; I was really more hoping that people would expound on why they believe that the British literary tradition has produced a disproportionate amount of authors who write/wrote in a certain vein, in relation to authors that the U.S. has produced. It seems especially odd given how much of the rest of the American literary tradition is rooted in British literary tradition. So can we please get back to the matter that I’d hoped was at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/44 "2004-06-09T02:33:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Ahem. > > **Guy Gavriel Kay**. > > Canadian, Jewish and as epic as they come. He’s Canadian? I never knew. I very much have enjoyed some of his works and still recommend him on a regular basis. I knew that he had helped Tolkien’s son finish the Silmarilian (but I have forgiven him) and so for some reason thought him to be British. Wow, learn something new every day. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/45 "2004-06-09T02:38:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Ahem. > > **Guy Gavriel Kay**. > > Canadian, Jewish and as epic as they come. He’s Canadian? I never knew. I very much have enjoyed some of his works and still recommend him on a regular basis. I knew that he had helped Tolkien’s son finish the Silmarilian (but I have forgiven him) and so for some reason thought him to be British. Wow, learn something new every day. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/46 "2004-06-09T02:46:09Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’d stack up Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber against any fantasy series going. > > Powers’ Earthquake Weather trilogy is also powerful. > > I enjoyed both a LOT more than I enjoyed LOTR or the Silent Planet series. (In fact, I don’t consider the Silent Planet novels worthy – seems to me that their religious implications have given them a big boost that the story itself doesn’t deserve). Zelazny is one of the all time greats in my book. And still think Lord of Light is one of the best (Sci Fi? Fantasy?) books out there. The one thing that struck me though was the impact he has had on contemporary writers. When he passed there was a tribute book of short stories written in Zelazny’s “style.” At the end of each story the author’s had a little to say about him. He must have been a very kind man. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/47 "2004-06-09T08:20:32Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > If “Americans make up the **greater bulk** of well-known science fiction authors” how in the world does naming four names invalidate this? Because I’m having difficulty naming “well-known” American skiffy authors - well, active ones, anyway. Bova, Bear, Turtledove, Foster, Gibson … that’s about it. Five names doesn’t exactly constitute a “greater bulk” when faced with four counter-examples that trip straight off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/48 "2004-06-09T18:18:05Z")
[The Locus Index to Science Fiction: Site Directory](http://www.locusmag.com/index/). Click on any of the annual links, and then click on Authors. You will find the names of many _hundreds_ of working American science fiction writers. By any estimation, U.S. writers outnumber those in the rest of the English-speaking world by at least 10 to 1. Greater bulk, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/49 "2004-06-09T19:18:40Z")
Hey **Eva Luna** , one American writer I’ve not seen mentioned is Kate Elliott. For fantasy, she’s got the very successful _Crown of Stars_ series: _King’s Dragon Prince of Dogs The Burning Stone Child of Flame Crown of Stars_ I’ve not had a chance to read this yet. It’s on that huge list of to do reading, but from what little I’ve seen, there’s all kinds of classic references and stuff in it. She’s also got a successful science fiction series out called _The Novels of the Jaran_ containing: _Jaran An Earthly Crown His Conquering Sword The Law of Becoming_ These I have read, and they’re full of all sorts of classic references. ---
**Author:** ![G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.B.H.Hornswoggler)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/50 "2004-06-09T19:19:41Z")
Re: Robin Hobb > [@DeadlyAccurate](#): > > Seconded. Though I’m pretty sure she’s British. Nope. She’s the writer previously known as “Megan Lindholm” (that’s an open secret), and is from the Northwest USA. (Washington state, as I recall.) ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/51 "2004-06-09T19:35:06Z")
Possible other American fantasy writers are: Madeleine L’Engle Tamora Pierce Robin McKinley I guess y’all are seeing a trend here since they write a lot of children’s literature. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.B.H.Hornswoggler)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/52 "2004-06-09T20:16:24Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > One more for the list of epic American fantasy writers: Steven Erikson, author of the goddamn enormous Malazan Book of the Fallen. And Erikson is a _Canadian_, one who was also long-resident in the UK (though he’s back on the Great Frozen Tundra now – I think he lives in Calgary, or some similar desolate wasteland). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/53 "2004-06-09T21:12:24Z")
> [@G.B.H. Hornswoggler](#): > > And Erikson is a _Canadian_. Oh. The author bio I have for him says only that he graudated from the Iowa Writer’s Workshop. I presumed that meant he was American, if not necessarily Iowan. **Exapno** - your definition of well-known and mine do not seem to coincide. I wouldn’t presume to declare myself an absolute authority on the topic, but I believe I’m up to date enough to say that if I don’t even know your name, you’re not a well known sci-fi author. Merely getting published is not enough, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/54 "2004-06-09T21:50:04Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > [The Locus Index to Science Fiction: Site Directory](http://www.locusmag.com/index/). > > Click on any of the annual links, and then click on Authors. You will find the names of many _hundreds_ of working American science fiction writers. > > By any estimation, U.S. writers outnumber those in the rest of the English-speaking world by at least 10 to 1. Greater bulk, indeed. This is going to turn ugly. Without turning this into a poll of who spent most of college reading SF in the back of the class: Going from memory (and I figure I’m not terribly familiar with this genre, so maybe I am a good example, or not, your choice - I’ve only really heard of the biggies), all of the sci fi authors I can think of as “classics” are American. Granted, I can only think of five or so, but nary an Englishman in sight (since we’re throwing lists around: Dick, Ellison, Hienlin, Asimov, Del Ray, Delaney, Farmer, Sagan, Vonnegut Jr.). I’m willing to concede that my list is biased as 1) I’m American 2) most of those names are ones I’ve heard in connection with movies (although I’ve read [more correctly, attempted to read] a book by each of the authors except Del Ray and Sagan) 3) the definition of “classic” or “epic” hasn’t been sucessfully defined here and we can argue this one for months, so perhaps we should all give it up. Also, what does there being 10x the amount of US authors have to do with anything? Even if the percentage of “sprawling epic” writers (or whatever term we’re using) is constant, there will be more [of that type of] US authors. Why get your panties into a bunch over that? Oh wait, Orwell, Wells, Huxley and…that other guy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/55 "2004-06-09T22:59:11Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > This is going to turn ugly. Without turning this into a poll of who spent most of college reading SF in the back of the class: > > Going from memory (and I figure I’m not terribly familiar with this genre, so maybe I am a good example, or not, your choice - I’ve only really heard of the biggies), all of the sci fi authors I can think of as “classics” are American. Granted, I can only think of five or so, but nary an Englishman in sight (since we’re throwing lists around: Dick, Ellison, Hienlin, Asimov, Del Ray, Delaney, Farmer, Sagan, Vonnegut Jr.). I did actually say I was excluding the dead when I made my list, which includes everyone on your list except Delany, Ellison and Father Kurt. Frankly, though, if you make a list of classic SF authors without including Wells, Huxley or Verne (not British, but still) then you’re wasting your time and ours - for Christ’s sake, Wells practically invented the genre as we know it. For that matter, if you don’t include Bradbury, Harrison, Blish, Finney or Matheson in your list of great American skiffy writers you’re doing something severely wrong. Please don’t take this as a flame. Instead, think of it as constructive criticism in the form of a reading list. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/56 "2004-06-09T23:49:51Z")
There is no way my “well-known” is going to correspond to your “well-known”. So for all I know I could list 50 of my favorite sf authors and you (generic “you”) may never have heard of any of them. But I have been a working professional in the field for 30 years. I just cannot imagine anyone who is truly knowledgeable about sf disagreeing with the premise that U.S. sf writers absolutely dominate in numbers, sales, books published, and any other category you care to list. It’s like saying that U.S. movies don’t dominate the world market just because you can’t think of too many titles. That might say something about your knowledge of movies, but doesn’t change reality in any way. If you live in the U.K. and are better acquainted with U.K. writers, that’s understandable. But you can’t extrapolate from that sample. This is just a simple fact about the publishing world. To be honest, when I first replied to **Evil Death** it never occurred to me for one second that he might think that “greater bulk” might be factually incorrect. It absolutely is not. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/57 "2004-06-10T04:11:13Z")
Am I the only one who noticed that neither **Evil Death** nor **Chairman Pow** mentioned Niven? Surely, he belongs on any list of the greats, and I’m pretty sure that California is still in America. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/58 "2004-06-10T17:07:34Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > There is no way my “well-known” is going to correspond to your “well-known”. So for all I know I could list 50 of my favorite sf authors and you (generic “you”) may never have heard of any of them. Yours is not a list of 50 _well-known_ authors, though, is it? Now when I say someone is “well-known” I mean they are widely known, but you seem to think it means “someone I’ve heard of in the course of my thirty years experience of the field”. Do correct me if I’m wrong in this, but if you do, please try to address the point in hand while you’re at it. > [@](#): > > But I have been a working professional in the field for 30 years. I just cannot imagine anyone who is truly knowledgeable about sf disagreeing with the premise that U.S. sf writers absolutely dominate in numbers, sales, books published, and any other category you care to list. I wasn’t ever _dealing_ with the premise that Americans don’t dominate numerically overall - and nor, for that matter was anyone else at any time except you. This is a thread about why certain nationalities rise to the top, not why Americans publish so much. Oh, and before you start willy-waving again, Chronos is right - we both deserve a thwapping because we forgot Larry Niven. I can be forgiven this, though, because I’m an amateur. **Chronos** - since when has California been on _Earth_? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/59 "2004-06-10T19:59:32Z")
“Well-known” is a meaningless concept. For example, **Evil Death** , you don’t seem to understand that three of the four names you mentioned as refutation that the greater bulk of well-known sf writers are American - Iain Banks, Peter F Hamilton, and Alastair Reynolds - would be known to, or even heard of, by only the hippest American sf devotee, and the fourth, China Mieville, has barely graduated into the generally heard of category. That’s because it is just tremendously more difficult to get books by U.K. authors in the U.S. than vice versa. And this applies to authors from every other country as well, except Canada. I’ve been trying to put some rigor into my arguments by showing that by any objective standard, U.S. writers dominate the world market for sf, which under any possible definition would seem to mean that they are better-known. Your argument, on the other hand, appears to be that even though Americans dominate the field of sf in every conceivable way, they do so anonymously so that only insiders will have ever heard of them. This is absurd. Since you are the only human being who has ever argued against the proposition that - as **Charman Pow** orginally said - “Americans make up the greater bulk of well-known science fiction authors” there’s certainly no point in my prolonging this. You might note that you’re getting no support from anyone else in this thread. That’s because there is nothing that can be said in support of your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037/60 "2004-06-10T21:27:08Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Your argument, on the other hand, appears to be that even though Americans dominate the field of sf in every conceivable way, they do so anonymously so that only insiders will have ever heard of them. This is absurd. You’ve spent 30 years in the field and haven’t yet discovered that 5% of the authors sell 95% of the books? > [@](#): > > Since you are the only human being who has ever argued against the proposition that - as **Charman Pow** orginally said - “Americans make up the greater bulk of well-known science fiction authors” there’s certainly no point in my prolonging this. You might note that you’re getting no support from anyone else in this thread. That’s because there is nothing that can be said in support of your claim. Nobody’s said a word in support of your side either, which suggests to me more that people are perfectly happy to let us duke it out while getting on with something else. I’m inclined now to do this also, so let’s just drop it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-fantasy-epic-writers-why-all-british/249037.md?page=4)