# Great Ineffectual Film Heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416 "2005-06-01T18:23:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/21 "2005-06-01T21:23:19Z")
In my previous post, I meant no offence to any sexual orientation and apologise if I upset anyone. I merely meant that Bond persuaded Pussy to help. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/22 "2005-06-01T21:26:01Z")
Oh, forgot to add my own: everyone in _Dr. Stranglove_ who wasn’t a deranged air force general or part of the crew of a bomber. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/23 "2005-06-01T21:28:29Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Jack isn’t the hero. He thinks he is but actually he is the comic side kick. Precisely, though that must have been added to the plot later, since if you see the off-cuts Jack does much more fighting and is much more effective. I love that they cut that so he just gets to swagger arround pretending to be tough with lipstick smered on his lips. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/24 "2005-06-01T22:02:33Z")
I just watched the Japanese movie Battle Royale th’other day. The nominal ‘hero’ of BR - the person we follow at the beginning, the person we follow at the end, the person most of the big events center around - is Shuuya Nanahara. He doesn’t do a damn thing the whole movie. Pure luck saves him the first time he’s attacked. Then Kawada. Then Kawada saves Noriko’s life. Then Sugimura keeps Kiriyama from killing him. Then he fails to prevent the girls in the light house from killing eachother when one tries to kill him. Then Kawada finishes Kiriyama, and gets the 3 of them off the island alive. Until he dies from the injuries he got in his shootout with Kiriyama. Granted, in the end, he’s the one who kills Kitano, but that’s a minor point, more tying up a loose end than anything else. A last moment chance for him to be a hero for Noriko. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/25 "2005-06-01T22:04:23Z")
**[Without a Clue](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096454/)** – Sherlock Holmes is a bumbling incompetent. **Fort Apache** – at the end of the film, Henry Fonda is revered as a legendary hero of the old West, but it’s clear that he brought the entire mess upon himself, ignoring John Wayne’s advice throughout. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/26 "2005-06-01T22:32:06Z")
Jake Gittes (Jack Nicholson) in **Chinatown** : \*Doesn’t save the girl (either one for that matter). \*Fails to prevent the water-stealing scheme. \*Noah Cross, the villain, simply walks away scott free (with his daughter-by-his-daughter helpless in his clutches). \*Doesn’t even get to get one over on Escobar, his obnoxious rival. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/27 "2005-06-01T23:13:30Z")
Anthony Edwards’ character in [Miracle Mile](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097889/plotsummary). He’s just met the perfect girl and he’s trying to meet up with her, when he learns that WWIII has started and the missiles will hit Los Angeles in 70 minutes. He tries to warn everyone he meets of their impending doom, but IIRC few take his ravings seriously. Then, he finally hooks up with Dreamgirl once more, and his only goal now is to get them both out of town before Armageddon. Somehow, they end up in a helicopter, which isn’t a bad way to deal with rush-hour traffic, esp. in LA, but somehow they end up crash-landing smack-dab in the La Brea Tar Pits. As the helicopter slooowwly sinks into the mire, the doomed lovers must realize the bitter irony of their fate: they, almost alone of all Angelinos, will die of natural-enough causes (drowning in muck) just before the missiles hit. Their preserved remains may wait for thousands or millions of years before some sentient life form will eventually discover them, and perhaps learn much of this odd \*Homo sapiens \* species, just as people had earlier studied dinosaur remains from those same pits… What do I win? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/28 "2005-06-01T23:45:19Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > **Luke Skywalker** - Return of the Jedi. > **Lando would still have killed them all by blowing up the Death Star II.** \ The Rebels were only able to turn the tide of the battle when the Emporer was killed because he was directing the Empire’s forces through the battle (both in space and on Endor) with his mad Dark Side skillz. Thus the Luke/Vader/Palpatine showdown was absolutely critical to the fate of the battle and not just there because Lucas had to play out the redemption theme. \ Then again, I haven’t seen the movie in awhile…does the shield get blown before or after the Emporer gets tossed down the well? Because once the shield goes down, it seems like the Rebels have enough small fighters left at that time that even if Wedge & the _Falcon_ fail on the first run, there are plenty of ships left to make it a near certainty that someone will get the kill shot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/29 "2005-06-02T00:10:09Z")
> [@Draelin](#): > > Indy managed to be completely useless in _Last Crusade,_ as well. If the Jones boys had never gotten involved, nobody would have made it to the Grail. Indy’s mission was to save his father. He did. All the while he tried to recover the map that lead to the Canyon of the Crescent Moon, but failed. However, nobody really did know how to get to the Grail once inside the temple, except for a vague idea Indy and his father had. Had Indy not recovered the Grail, the traitor doctor would have informed his situation to his superiors (much more so because the Nazi general would still be alive and would have demanded a communication to Berlin). That means more nazis would know where the Grail is and the whole affair would have been a catastrophe. **But** , we’re forgetting a crucial bit of information. The Knight tells Indy that the price of inmortaily was bound to the temple. Step outside and you shake off all your Jesus juices. In this case, yes, nobody’s actions really did affect the outcome. Indy did save his father, though (twice). > [@fiddlesticks](#): > > Then again, I haven’t seen the movie in awhile…does the shield get blown before or after the Emporer gets tossed down the well? Because once the shield goes down, it seems like the Rebels have enough small fighters left at that time that even if Wedge & the Falcon fail on the first run, there are plenty of ships left to make it a near certainty that someone will get the kill shot. The Emperor gets shafted after the shield goes down. The “mind control” theory is an Extended Universe justification, I presume. I think that given both Vader’s and the Emperor’s clairvoyant abilities (well, Vader’s for sure. Ever notice how the Emperor foresees things after they happened or are so freakin’ obvious they will… or don’t happen at all? Hmm…) they would have realized at some point they were going to be destroyed. Not to mention the fact that Vader was in the Death Star only because of Luke (though the Exuctor did get destroyed, but who knows?). ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/30 "2005-06-02T00:25:48Z")
Cole in **12 Monkeys** : sent back in time to prevent the Army Of The Twelve Monkeys spreading the apocalyptic plague virus, but despite his kick-arse tough guy skills, he only manages to… watch himself being shot, from the POV of his younger self: meanwhile, the vials of virus get carried onto the plane and spread around the globe. Nothing to do with The Army Of The Twelve Monkeys, you see. Bad intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/31 "2005-06-02T00:42:51Z")
The Ninth Doctor - just a bystander, doesn’t really do much, while events happen around him. ROSE - he’s captured by the Autons, Rose recuses him, and kills the alien. UNQUIET DEAD - Dickens turns on the gas, which traps the aliens, and the psychic girl blows up the house. The Doctor’s actions, holding the seance, made the problem worse. DALEK - the dalek absorbs Rose’s DNA and becomes humanised, then commits suicide. FATHER’S DAY - Rose’s father solved the time rift by killing himself. EMPTY CHILD/DOCTOR DANCES - the nanogenes reprogrammed themselves when tjhe girl hugged her brother. It would have happened eventually, whether the Doctor was there or not. Yeah, I know, TV show not movie. Sue me. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/32 "2005-06-02T01:17:42Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > **Goldfinger** - James Bond couldn’t stop the raid on Ft. Knox or disarm the bomb. Only Pussy Galore deciding she was a heterosexual saved the day. Bond, Pussy and Q saved the World working together, each making a valuable contribution. It was Q that disarmed the bomb, but he couldn’t have done that if Bond hadn’t killed Goldfinger’s henchmen. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/33 "2005-06-02T05:18:12Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > Cole in **12 Monkeys** : sent back in time to prevent the Army Of The Twelve Monkeys spreading the apocalyptic plague virus, but despite his kick-arse tough guy skills, he only manages to… > > watch himself being shot, from the POV of his younger self: meanwhile, the vials of virus get carried onto the plane and spread around the globe. Nothing to do with The Army Of The Twelve Monkeys, you see. Bad intelligence. Which, Ironically was provided by Cole himself. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/34 "2005-06-02T06:51:34Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > **Luke Skywalker** - Return of the Jedi. > > Think about it. Luke goes on the mission, thereby alerting Vader to their presence. Then he makes up for that by turning himself in hoping to turn Vader back to the light side. Well and good. An enormous lightsaber battle ensues in which Luke almost falls to the dark side and eventually wins over Vader. > > Nifty. > > Meanwhile, the real damn hero of the whole thing…Lando Calrissian and some X-Wings blow the Death Star II to flinders. > > So suppose Luke HAD fallen to the dark side? > > **Lando would still have killed them all by blowing up the Death Star II.** > > Suppose Vader HADN’T come back to Jesus and saved Luke. The Emperor kills Luke and he and Vader shake hands on a job well done. > > **Lando would still have killed them all by blowing up the Death Star II.** > > Effectively, nothing Luke did had any effect on the end of the battle at all. No matter which way it went Lando destroys the Death Star and with it, the Emperor, Vader, a hell of a lot of contractors, all blewie! > [@Draelin](#): > > And since it’s been mentioned how ineffectual Luke was during _Return of the Jedi,_ we might as well add _The Empire Strikes Back._ Vader plans to freeze Han in preparation for freezing Luke, then kill Leia and Chewie. He _does_ freeze Han, and Lando manages to get Leia and Chewie out of Cloud City. All Luke does is lose a hand. Lando is, again, the hero. So what you guys are saying is that 20 years from now Lucas is going to be doing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, and claiming that all along it’s really been his intention for the entire nine-movie series to be the story of Lando Calrissian? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/35 "2005-06-02T07:04:49Z")
**Saving Private Ryan**. I liked SPR, but the ending was so anticlimactic and deus ex machina that it destroyed the whole movie. The squad decides to stay and help Ryan defend the bridge. As a result the pretty much all die. The Germans almost manage to capture the bridge, then at the last minute reinforcements arrive and push the Germans into retreat. So if the squad hadn’t stayed they would all have been alive and the reinforcements would have still pushed the Germans into retreat. They all died for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/36 "2005-06-02T09:25:05Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So if the squad hadn’t stayed they would all have been alive and the reinforcements would have still pushed the Germans into retreat. They all died for nothing. They already would have made it over the bridge had the squad not stayed and fought. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/37 "2005-06-02T11:10:44Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So what you guys are saying is that 20 years from now Lucas is going to be doing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, and claiming that all along it’s really been his intention for the entire nine-movie series to be the story of Lando Calrissian? That’s what Billy Dee Williams is hoping. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/38 "2005-06-02T12:42:28Z")
**Cowboy Bebop.** Virtually nothing turns out right in the end for Spike, Faye, Ed, Ein, or Jet. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/39 "2005-06-02T13:21:03Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So what you guys are saying is that 20 years from now Lucas is going to be doing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, and claiming that all along it’s really been his intention for the entire nine-movie series to be the story of Lando Calrissian? _Star Wars, Episode VII_ … brought to you by Colt .45. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416/40 "2005-06-02T13:29:44Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > **Cowboy Bebop.** Virtually nothing turns out right in the end for Spike, Faye, Ed, Ein, or Jet. I would say that Spike got exactly what he wanted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-ineffectual-film-heroes/306416.md?page=3)