# Great (lesser known) Trials in Science Fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465 "2005-03-27T16:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/21 "2005-03-27T22:54:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If I had been Data’s lawyer in that case, I also would have argued the alternative theory that if he was property, he belonged to the estate of his maker, Noonian Soong, not Starfleet. I might even have sued Starfleet on the Soong Estate’s behalf, to compensate them for his use all those years. 😃 Actually, by the laws of salvage, and given that Soong had no surviving close kin (other than his robot wife), Data would probably belong to Starfleet completely legally if he’d been found to be non-sentient. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/22 "2005-03-27T22:56:21Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The silly notion that corporations are “people” has reached the status of a true urban legend. They aren’t, although under some conditions they can be treated equivalently for certain legal purposes. As can other kinds of collective entities – governments, foundations, associations, churches – coming under the general heading of “legal persons.” Such have the right to own property (and can be sued in civil actions) – but they can’t vote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/23 "2005-03-27T22:59:46Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > In _Red Dwarf_ a robot called _The Inquisitor_ tried everyone in history to see if they were worthy of existing. Those found unworthy were erased and replaced. And Rimmer was once convicted (based on a memory scan) by a justice computer, for negligent homicide in causing the accident that wiped out the Red Dwarf’s crew. Kryten got him retried and acquitted on the grounds (and over Rimmer’s vociferous protests 😃 ) that he was too low-level a grunt to be held responsible for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/24 "2005-03-27T23:02:43Z")
Nor can corporations own or adopt people, as asked in one recent thread here, or do a thousand other things that are attributed to them. Nor can corporations be tried and sent to prison, although their officers can. Or be dismantled for study as Data was threatened with. I don’t agree with this analogy at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/25 "2005-03-27T23:03:16Z")
In Heinlein’s _Star Beast,_ there was a trial to decide if the giant talking alien creature Lummox should be put down. (Lummox’ legal status changed abruptly when she grew a pair of hands, one of the key tests for sentient-being status.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/26 "2005-03-27T23:08:40Z")
Both _You Will Know Them_ by Vercors and _Orphan of Creation_ by Roger McBride Allen revolve around the same plot, the killing of one of a newly discovered human species to test in court whether the species is human or animal by modern legal definitions. Robert Sawyer’s _Illegal Alien_ turns this around and has an alien commit the crime. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/27 "2005-03-27T23:14:57Z")
In _ST:DS9,_ Jadzia Dax was once put on trial for a crime allegedly committed by her symbiont’s previous host, Curzon Dax. And Chief O’Brien was kidnapped and tried by the Cardassians for war crimes. In the film _Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country,_ Klingon Chancellor Gorkon is assassinated during a peace negotiation, and Kirk and Spock are accused of the crime, convicted in a Klingon court, and sentenced to a labor camp. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/28 "2005-03-27T23:17:28Z")
In the second episode of _Sliders,_ the heroes slide into an alternate Earth where the U.S. is under Soviet occupation. Rembrandt is arrested (and tried on TV, by Judge Wapner in "The People’s Court) when he innocently spends one of the pre-conquest (green) dollar bills instead of one of the new official (red) ones. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/29 "2005-03-28T00:02:32Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > I shouldn’t go into these threads. They make my head hurt from pounding it against the wall. > > James Morrow’s _Blameless in Abaddon_ is not “stretching the definition” of science fiction, it is the very essence of what real science fiction is all about. And that has nothing to do with spaceships and everything to do with concepts. Really? For true? But . . . rayguns . . . if it doesn’t have any rayguns it’s not science fiction, right? C’mon, man, dial it down a notch. I really do resent being dictated to as though I am not entitled to an informed opinion as to where the boundaries of the genre might be drawn. I didn’t say “stretching,” technically. I said “skirting.” Some people think some of Morrow’s work is best classified as science fiction, but some prefer to call it social satire. When I look for Morrow in 5 out of the 6 bookstores I frequent, I find his work in “Fiction and Literature,” not “Science Fiction.” It’s definitely _speculative fiction_, but the OP did say science fiction seemed to be looking for alien/outer-space stuff. Nonetheless, I can’t resist the opportunity to flog Morrow, so I thought mentioning _Abaddon_ with the caveat was warranted. > [@](#): > > And if you think Morrow doesn’t write science fiction, your head will spin right around when I tell you of Parke Godwin’s wonderful _The Snake Oil Wars_. Er, yes . . . Thank you . . . Because I’ve never once encountered science fiction that posits that God is an alien . . . ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/30 "2005-03-28T00:18:08Z")
I seem to remeber reading your biography, “Podkayne of Mars”, where a zygote storage firm was sued for accidentally unthawing one early when the parents didn’t want to bring it up. How did that turn out again? ---
**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/31 "2005-03-28T00:41:28Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Nor can corporations own or adopt people, as asked in one recent thread here, or do a thousand other things that are attributed to them. > > Nor can corporations be tried and sent to prison, although their officers can. Or be dismantled for study as Data was threatened with. > > I don’t agree with this analogy at all. Corporations can’t be dismantled by the courts? What happens when the court busts up monopolies? I doubt also that Data will ever be allowed to own or adopt a human, either. And, instead of sending him to prison, he could be dismantled or his owners (does he have owners?) would be imprisoned, just like the CEO of ImClone. I agree with **Podkayne**. Tone it down a notch. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/32 "2005-03-28T00:55:48Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > I seem to remeber reading your biography, “Podkayne of Mars”, where a zygote storage firm was sued for accidentally unthawing one early when the parents didn’t want to bring it up. How did that turn out again? It never went to court. My Uncle Tom persuaded them to see reason. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/33 "2005-03-28T01:02:21Z")
In Heinlein’s _I Will Fear No Evil,_ dying billionaire Johann Smith had his brain transplanted into the body of his young, recently murdered secretary, Eunice Branca. Naturally, his greedy grandchildren accused the resulting “Joan Eunice Smith” of being an imposter and sued to have their grandfather declared legally dead. (They lost.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/34 "2005-03-28T01:14:23Z")
Miles Vorkosigan was involved in at least two trials but, due to Barrayaran law, they were conducted more like committee hearings. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/35 "2005-03-28T02:39:25Z")
One of the segments of the film _Heavy Metal_ involved a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/36 "2005-03-28T02:52:34Z")
More Heinlein: Hazel Stone tying the martian court system in knots defending Cas and Pol for import/export problems. ---
**Author:** ![Phnord\_Prephect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@Phnord\_Prephect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phnord_Prephect)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/37 "2005-03-28T03:05:03Z")
And, one more Heinlein trial… Stranger in a Strange Land had the trial in which Mike Smith, the human raised as a martian, was declared sole owner of the entire planet of Mars. Rather good for one’s financial position, if you can pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/38 "2005-03-28T03:18:41Z")
Stanislaw Lem uses court hearings in a few books. The best is a short story titled “The Washing Machine Tragedy” which charts the growing legal battles over what rights and liabilities sentient machines vs. their owners (if a sentient machine, possibly acting in conspiracy with its owner, commits a crime, then disassembles itself to avoid capture, then claims after reassembly that it is no long the original machine that comitted the crime, who’s responsible?), culminating in the legal standing of a human who transfers his intelligence to a 50-mile wide protoplanet made up entirely of separate minicomputers. And it all starts from two rival washing machine companies trying to outdo each other in automated features. ---
**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/39 "2005-03-28T03:23:17Z")
Ooh, good one, **Snoooooopy** , I loved Heavy Metal! I may have to rent it again. Heinlein seems to have a thing for trials, doesn’t he? And **Sublight** , that sounds absolutely fascinating. I was trying not to go find more books to read before I’m finished with this semester’s homework, but that sounds too good to wait 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465/40 "2005-03-28T03:31:04Z")
It’s a short story in his book “Memoirs of a Space Traveler” which has a number of fantastically chilling stories (the Washing Machine one is lighter) about artificial life and intelligence. I recommend it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-lesser-known-trials-in-science-fiction/296465.md?page=3)