# Great Seal of the US--can we dump the Masonic symbolism yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935 "2002-11-15T22:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/1 "2002-11-15T22:01:39Z")
So I just noticed (thanks to Zack Parsons at [Something Awful](http://www.somethingawful.com/)) the new seal for DARPA’s [Information Awareness Office](http://www.darpa.mil/iao/). Now, completely apart from the fact that the office is headed by John “I Lied to Congress About Iran-Contra And Got Away With It” Poindexter, Parson’s seems dead-on in his assessment of the seal as “the Illuminati [catching] the planet in an evil tractor beam.” Let’s face it, the seal–depicting the truncated-pyramid-and-eye from the Great Seal of the US casting a yellow light upon the Earth–is freaky, and I find it fairly ominous. But, of course, it’s just an extension of the symbolism found on the Great Seal, as well as every dollar bill out there. There’s little doubt (as far as I know) that the pyramid and eye come straight out of Freemasonry. The pyramid represents the unfinished Temple of Solomon, and the eye the Grand Architect of the Universe. They were Masonic symbols well before the adoption of the Seal, and certainly numerous Founding Fathers were Masons. Now, I’m not interested in debating Freemasonry. I’ve got no beef with it. And the symbols have moved beyond being purely Masonic and now are pretty much generic US symbols, I suppose. But if they no longer represent what they originally did, what _do_ they now represent? Answer: not a damn thing, to Joe Sixpack at least. So anyway–am I way off base for being continually creeped out by the GSotUS? Am I off-base for being similarly creeped out by the new seal of the IAO? Should the pyramid-and-eye be replaced with someting a little more, well, meaningful and less mystical? ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/2 "2002-11-15T22:31:58Z")
While where at it let’s lose all references to religion on the money. We could just put Calvin & Hobbes comics on instead. Then maybe I could relate a little better. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/3 "2002-11-15T22:50:35Z")
I think that the more creeped out you are about those charged with securing your rights, the more vigilant you will be. I hope it creeps everyone out. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/4 "2002-11-15T23:24:07Z")
Goodness. Oh, yeah, _that_ seal won’t freak out every camo-wearing militia member between here and the Rockies, no sir. Actually, hell, that thing kinda creeps **me** out, especially given some of the [allegations about what that particular office is up to](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/opinion/14SAFI.html). (Link requires free registration at the [_New York Times_](http://www.nytimes.com).) “Biologically inspired algorithms for agent control”?!? OK, I think I actually have some idea of what that means, but combined with the seal, it’s enough to cause a run on tin foil at supermarkets across America. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/5 "2002-11-16T05:50:10Z")
Oh, the William Safire thing, yeah, I saw that go past earlier today. > [@](#): > > November 14, 2002 > > You Are a Suspect > By WILLIAM SAFIRE > > ASHINGTON — If the Homeland Security Act is not amended before passage, here is what will happen to you: > > Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine subscription you buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and e-mail you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank deposit you make, every trip you book and every event you attend — all these transactions and communications will go into what the Defense Department describes as “a virtual, centralized grand database.” > > To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial sources, add every piece of information that government has about you — passport application, driver’s license and bridge toll records, judicial and divorce records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the F.B.I., your lifetime paper trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance — and you have the supersnoop’s dream: a “Total Information Awareness” about every U.S. citizen. > > This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario. It is what will happen to your personal freedom in the next few weeks if John Poindexter gets the unprecedented power he seeks. I dunno, I kinda like the mental image of John Poindexter as Senator Palpatine. 😃 [Before the Act.](http://www.theforce.net/episode1/oldPreq/characters/pics/ssfig-palpatine.jpg) [After the Act.](http://www.theforce.net/kids/coruscant/probe_droid/palpatine.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/6 "2002-11-16T05:59:04Z")
Sure, guys, go ahead and laugh. You’ll think diffently when jack booted Shriners ride up on thier tiny black cars to take your guns! Don’t say you weren’t warned, I’ve been saying this stuff for years, and…'scuse, someone at the door. No. NO! NOOOOO! AAAAAAaaaaarrrrgggh! ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/7 "2002-11-16T06:02:50Z")
Interesting acronym for the new organization…from [The Formula of I.A.O.:](http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/aba/chap5.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*This formula is the principal and most characteristic formula of Osiris, of the Redemption of Mankind. “I” is Isis, Nature, ruined by “A”, Apophis the Destroyer, and restored to life by the Redeemer Osiris. > > [sub]MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE > > Part III of Book Four by The Master Therion (Aleister Crowley)[/sub]\*\* …but I’m sure this is just a coincidence ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/8 "2002-11-16T17:55:44Z")
There was only one Freemason on the committee that designed the Great Seal of the U.S., Ben Franklin. It is just a coincidence that both the Freemasons and the United States both use an eye on a pyramid to represent a higher power. The logo of IAO looks like God is trying to destroy Europe and most of Africa by making them melt. What that means, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/9 "2002-11-16T18:17:50Z")
I don’t care much about the logo, but this department would scare the bejeezus out of me if I were American. Especially the database correlation project. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/10 "2002-11-16T20:21:40Z")
> [@](#): > > There was only one Freemason on the committee that designed the Great Seal of the U.S., Ben Franklin. It is just a coincidence that both the Freemasons and the United States both use an eye on a pyramid to represent a higher power. Can you expand on that, **mobo85**? 'Cos I think the argument that it’s just a coincidence simply because only one member of the comittee was a Mason doesn’t necessarily hold water. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/11 "2002-11-16T21:09:55Z")
An eye wasn’t the first choice for the Seal. William Barton’s blazon, or written description, of his Seal design originally read “A pyramid of thirteen Strata and on the summit of it a Palm Tree, proper.” And according to _The Eagle and the Shield: A History of the Great Seal of the United States_, published in 1976 by the U.S. Department of State, > [@](#): > > Use of the eye in art forms, including medallic art, as a symbol for an omniscient and ubiquitous Deity was a well established artistic convention quite apart from Masonic symbolism…As to the pyramid, there was widespread interest in Egypt and things Egyptian in the eighteenth century, and in the Library Company of Philadelphia there was a detailed work entitled “Pyramidographia” which would have been available to [some of the committee members]…It seems likely that the designers of the Great Seal and the Masons took their symbols from parallel sources, and unlikely that the seal designers consciously copied Masonic symbols with the intention of incorporating Masonic symbolism into the national coat of arms. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/12 "2002-11-16T21:14:03Z")
Also, according to the Masonic Service Assoc. of the U.S., the Freemasons have never used an unfinished pyramid as a symbol. An eye, yes. A pyramid, no. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/13 "2002-11-16T22:20:46Z")
If you want a description of the meaning of the seal and many other symbols, read **The Power of Myth** by Joseph Campbell. Personally, I’m against adopting symbols that Joe Sixpack would understand. Instead, maybe we should educate _ **ole Joe** _. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/14 "2002-11-17T01:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, according to the Masonic Service Assoc. of the U.S., the Freemasons have never used an unfinished pyramid as a symbol. An eye, yes. A pyramid, no. Well, for the love of Pete. [http://freemasonry.hrshadows.com/library/misca-e/eyeandthepyramid.txt](http://freemasonry.hrshadows.com/library/misca-e/eyeandthepyramid.txt) Good shootin’, **mobo**. Thanks. Anyone got anything to the contrary? Ok then. Granted the inaccurate thread title and my egregious assumptions in the OP, I think a question remains: Just how creepy is the IAO? \ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/15 "2002-11-17T02:47:08Z")
[The Master Speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_022.html). ---
**Author:** ![Calenth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@Calenth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calenth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/16 "2002-11-17T02:57:39Z")
Whatever else, I think it demonstrates that someone in our government has a marvelously manipulative sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/17 "2002-11-18T15:05:18Z")
regarding the IAO seal: Someone at DARPA must have been leafing through a copy of the Book of the SubGenius. Goodness. What will Jack Chick think of this. As to the obverse-and-reverse of the Great Seal, it’s kinda quaint, really. (Though used to wonder how come a _seal_ had an obverse-and-reverse. After all, you imprint it ON the surface of the sealing wax or the paper itself). Anyway just the side with the Arms of the US (the more familiar device of the escutcheon of the colors of the US, on the breast of a bald eagle clutching arrows and olive brances, crowned with stars) would be fine. And I don’t care if they have Barney the Dinosaur on their letterhead, I’d rather have it be more clear what the agency is doing. “Knowledge is Power” indeed… ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/18 "2002-11-18T20:24:16Z")
Yeah, if we could only change the way our symbols look, all our problems could be solved. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Broken\_Column](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@The\_Broken\_Column](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Broken_Column)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/19 "2004-02-14T05:50:48Z")
Well I hate to burst your bubble, but the Symbols on the Great Seal (Thus the dollar bill backing), are not Masonic, nor was a Mason on the comittee that drew the Great Seal. The Comittee that was chosen for the Great Seal, was not Ben Franklin’s. There were three committees only one “won” the contest, Ben Franklin’s lost miserably with his idea of a Turkey being the nation’s bird. Reading about how the symbols came to be, and the Latin which is directly taken from Virgil the Poet, and you will see that most of this is just coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935/20 "2004-02-14T21:18:13Z")
If you want to get creeped out about the masons and the seal check out: THE ULTIMATE FRONTIER by Eklal Kueshana RULE BY SECRECY by Jim Marrs isn’t bad either. Dal Timgar > [@andros](#): > > So I just noticed (thanks to Zack Parsons at [Something Awful](http://www.somethingawful.com/)) the new seal for DARPA’s [Information Awareness Office](http://www.darpa.mil/iao/). > > Now, completely apart from the fact that the office is headed by John “I Lied to Congress About Iran-Contra And Got Away With It” Poindexter, Parson’s seems dead-on in his assessment of the seal as “the Illuminati [catching] the planet in an evil tractor beam.” Let’s face it, the seal–depicting the truncated-pyramid-and-eye from the Great Seal of the US casting a yellow light upon the Earth–is freaky, and I find it fairly ominous. > > But, of course, it’s just an extension of the symbolism found on the Great Seal, as well as every dollar bill out there. There’s little doubt (as far as I know) that the pyramid and eye come straight out of Freemasonry. The pyramid represents the unfinished Temple of Solomon, and the eye the Grand Architect of the Universe. They were Masonic symbols well before the adoption of the Seal, and certainly numerous Founding Fathers were Masons. > > Now, I’m not interested in debating Freemasonry. I’ve got no beef with it. And the symbols have moved beyond being purely Masonic and now are pretty much generic US symbols, I suppose. But if they no longer represent what they originally did, what _do_ they now represent? Answer: not a damn thing, to Joe Sixpack at least. > > So anyway–am I way off base for being continually creeped out by the GSotUS? Am I off-base for being similarly creeped out by the new seal of the IAO? Should the pyramid-and-eye be replaced with someting a little more, well, meaningful and less mystical? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-seal-of-the-us-can-we-dump-the-masonic-symbolism-yet/136935.md?page=2)