# Great US Composers Not Black or Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 1999, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784 "1999-09-30T09:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GatewayDrug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@GatewayDrug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GatewayDrug)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/1 "1999-09-30T09:15:00Z")
Are there any great 20th century American composers not Black or Jewish? Submitted for your approval: Jews Irving Berlin George Gershwin Aaron Copland Jerome Kern Richard Rogers (+Hart +Hammerstein) Frank Loesser Leonard Bernstein Stephen Sondheim Phillip Glass Bob Dylan Paul Simon Randy Newman Beastie Boys Blacks Scott Joplin Duke Ellington Thelonius Monk Miles Davis Smokey Robinson Holland/Dozier/Holland Prince Marvin Gaye Every Great Hip-Hop Artist Not Jewish, Not Black Cole Porter – the exception? John Phillip Sousa Bruce Springsteen There are so many blacks and Jews I missed and so many others I didn’t it’s not funny–I’m sure you’ll all fill in the blanks. But my point is basically that American music would suck without blacks and Jews. Comments? ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/2 "1999-09-30T19:51:00Z")
How about John Cage? I don’t actually know his ethnicity, but a lot of people consider him a great composer. (I don’t know his music well enough to have an opinion myself.) On the subject of Johns, some people might consider Adams and/or Williams to be great composers. I personally consider Williams to be a big ripoff of Igor Stravinsky. How about Danny Elfman (ethnicity/greatness)? By the way, do you think the Beastie Boys are great composers but not great hip-hop artists? ---
**Author:** ![kknick34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kknick34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kknick34)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/3 "1999-09-30T19:53:00Z")
How about Lenny Kravitz??? ---
**Author:** ![GatewayDrug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@GatewayDrug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GatewayDrug)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/4 "1999-09-30T20:31:00Z")
Lenny Kravitz – not great, but 1/2 Jewish & Black John Cage – great, and I think he is Jewish. could be wrong. Danny Elfman – not great, but a jew Never heard of John Adams, but John Williams seems to me to represent _exactly_ how lame and white-bread our musical culture would be in a WASP-ier world. John Williams, James Horner (Titanic), and John fucking Tesh. I threw in the Beasties in the last minute just because 1) they rock and 2) they’re so monolithically Jewish. Yes, they’re hip-hop. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/5 "1999-09-30T21:10:00Z")
Frank Zappa ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/6 "1999-09-30T21:12:00Z")
Also, I would hardly call Bob Dylan a great composer. Certainly a great _lyricist_ but only a passable composer. * * * Plunging like stones from a slingshot on Mars. ---
**Author:** ![Phaedrus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@Phaedrus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phaedrus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/7 "1999-09-30T21:22:00Z")
De gustibus non disputandum est. ---
**Author:** ![GatewayDrug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@GatewayDrug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GatewayDrug)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/8 "1999-09-30T21:47:00Z")
Frank Zappa – great and Jewish Bob Dylan – How many people have to cover your songs before you’re a great composer? His tunes may have a limited range, but his songs (lyrics + melodies) have touched 100 times more people than the collected works of Phillip Glass, an official “composer.” Perhaps I should have said musicians or songwriter or performers. I had to limit it somehow. I do see your point. If I count Dylan, I have to count Woodie Guthrie, definitely not Jewish. ## Blacks I Forgot Charley Patton Robert Johnson Muddy Waters Count Basie Howlin’ Wolf Leadbelly Willie Dixon \GatewayDrug\: Because I couldn’t think of anything better. ---
**Author:** ![SoxFan59](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@SoxFan59](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoxFan59)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/9 "1999-09-30T21:51:00Z")
Beastie Boys???!!?? Maybe you included them just because they are Jewish. * * * SoxFan59 “Its fiction, but all the facts are true!” ---
**Author:** ![SoxFan59](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@SoxFan59](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoxFan59)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/10 "1999-09-30T21:52:00Z")
As an aside, perhaps the answer lies in a line from the old “Golden Girls” T.V. show. (I don’t know who said what): Q: Why are so many doctors jewish? A: Because thier mothers were! * * * SoxFan59 “Its fiction, but all the facts are true!” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 1999, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/11 "1999-09-30T22:24:00Z")
It sounds like a Sophia line. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/12 "1999-10-01T00:00:00Z")
What? No Adam Sandler? ---
**Author:** ![GatewayDrug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@GatewayDrug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GatewayDrug)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/13 "1999-10-01T01:43:00Z")
OK OK forget everyone from the last thirty years: no Beastie Boys, no rap, no Springsteen. ## “Oh what is it about you that makes me so jolly?, Is it your fifty cotton or your fifty poly?” _Red-Hooded Sweatshirt_, Adam Sandler GatewayDrug: Because I couldn’t think of anything better. ---
**Author:** ![\_00\_The\_Fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/ed655f/32.png) [@\_00\_The\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_00_The_Fool)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/14 "1999-10-01T02:26:00Z")
OK, obscure music lovers: was Harry Partch Jewish or not? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/15 "1999-10-01T03:09:00Z")
Irving Berlin. Samuel Barber. Charles Ives. Rodgers and Hammerstein. Carlos Santana. Amy Beach. Fred Jewell. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/16 "1999-10-01T04:05:00Z")
A lot depends on your definition of “great,” of course. Your list contains a lot of names that do NOT qualify as great, in my book. But never mind that- let’s just settle for composers and songwriters who’ve had either critical acclaim or great commercial success. In the classical arena, there are: Charles Ives Giancarlo Menotti In the area of folk/country, there are: Hank Williams Woody Guthrie Willie Nelson Johnny Cash In the traditional pop area, there’s Cole Porter Jimmy Webb George M. Cohan Stephen Foster And in rock, there are (among many others): Buddy Holly Boudleaux Bryant Roy Orbison Brian Wilson Bruce Springsteen John C. Fogarty Steven Tyler/Joe Perry Tom Petty Don Henley Stephen Stills Roger McGuinn Lindsay Buckingham Beyond that, there are LOADS of people, whose religions/backgrounds I just don’t know. And frankly, I’m too lazy and uninterested to do much looking! ---
**Author:** ![kawliga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@kawliga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kawliga)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/17 "1999-10-01T07:10:00Z")
Frank Zappa was not Jewish. His ethnic background was a mixture of Greek, Sicilian and Syrian. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/18 "1999-10-01T14:20:00Z")
Alan Lerner and Fred Loewe? Loewe was German-born, but I have never heard either identified as Jewish. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 1999, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/19 "1999-10-01T16:37:00Z")
Hey, the reason so many musicians are Jewish is that we got natural rhythm. ---
**Author:** ![GatewayDrug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@GatewayDrug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GatewayDrug)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 1999, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/20 "1999-10-02T05:05:00Z")
**tomndebb** – For some reason I thought Lerner & Loewe were English…must have been the settings of My Fair Lady and Brigadoon. Lerner is most definitely a Jewish name. Loewe was born 1904 in Vienna, and there are European Jews name Loewe. **Kawlinga** – Are you sure Zappa’s not Jewish? His mixed-ethnicity doesn’t preclude it. **Astorian** – I didn’t mean to start everyone catologing 20th century musicians by race/ethnicity…it just seems to me that much of the vibrancy and vigor of 20th Century American popular culture (in this case music) is due to our laissez faire attitude toward outside influences, and that we take this for granted. We don’t need an Academie Francaise (sp?), for example, to monitor the language. And in music, the influence of Blacks & Jews has been wildly disproportionate to their numbers in the population. Ergo, American culture would be anemic without them. * * * GatewayDrug: Because I couldn’t think of anything better. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784.md?page=2)