# Great US Composers Not Black or Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 1999, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784 "1999-09-30T09:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/41 "2020-05-16T19:44:53Z")
Was the Cafe Society Forum not open in 1999 or is there another reason that this is in Great Debates? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/42 "2020-05-16T20:04:06Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Brian Wilson is the greatest American composer of modern history, and he’s not black or Jewish. We are all entitled to our opinions, but I think you would be hard pressed to defend that one with anything beyond “he’s a talented songwriter and his music really moves me.” > [@Lamoral](#): > > Stan Getz was Jewish. Dave Brubeck wasn’t, despite many people probably assuming that he was. At any rate this is a pointless exercise. > > I could rattle off gifted non-Jewish, non-Black, non-gay composers all day and someone would still say “well, they were building on the work of Jewish, Black, and gay composers.” Maybe it’s true. But those people were, themselves, building on the work of non-Jewish, non-Black and non-gay composers. That’s just how life is, people are influenced by other people. There’s no point trying to quantify it by ethnicity or some other personal characteristic like sexuality. Of course there’s a point. Understanding how and why and through what communities we derive our artistic sensibilities helps us understand who we are. That said, the OP (who I imagine is not here to defend themselves) is problematic as all get-out, and casts an oddly wide in scope net to catch “composers”, yet manages to name an arbitrary list of a few dozen people based on, I guess, whoever he could think of off the top of his head. > [@DSeid](#): > > Zombie or not, is there something to the idea that great creative originality is more likely to come from those who self-perceive as outside of the mainstream culture than those who are of it? ISTM that those of the mainstream culture will be just a bit more likely to beautifully color inside the lines (and rewarded for it), and self-perceived outsiders a bit more willing not only scribble in different directions but understanding that staying in the lines won’t work as well for them …? A bit more likely to take chances creatively, failing often but swinging for the fence? That’s my take on things as well. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/43 "2020-05-16T20:54:21Z")
How about the Brill Building and those peripheral to it in NYC? All of the songwriting teams were Jewish: Mann and Weill, Goffin and King, Bacharach and David, Sedaka and Greenfield, Pomus and Schuman, Leiber and Stoller, Barry and Greenwich. Also in that scene/mix: Laura Nyro Lou Reed Paul Simon Neil Diamond Bert Berns Shadow Morton Phil Spector George Goldner Jerry Wexler Herb and Miriam Abramson Irving Berlin was the one who broke the barrier. Cohan had been the biggest thing in the world, and also Berlins idol. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/44 "2020-05-16T21:51:26Z")
> **[Henry Russell (musician)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Russell_(musician))** > > Henry Russell (24 December 1812 or 1813 – 8 December 1900) was an English pianist, baritone singer and composer, born into a distinguished Jewish family. > Russell's career began in 1836, when at the age of 22 he traveled to the US and, in three seasons, earned no less a sum than £10,000. He subsequently lost this by investing in the United States Bank, which collapsed. > Russell wrote the song "A Life on the Ocean Wave" and the tune to George Pope Morris's poem Woodman, Spare that Tree while li... “Woodman Spare that Tree” has been called the first American hit song. The composer was British born, from a prominent Jewish family. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/45 "2020-05-16T22:03:54Z")
Dolly Parton Pete Seeger ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/46 "2020-05-16T22:17:04Z")
Stephen Foster Johnny Mercer ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/47 "2020-05-16T23:34:58Z")
Jimmy Van Heusen Cole Porter Neil Young is a non jewish north american. So isn’t Joni M. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/48 "2020-05-17T00:22:58Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Stephen Foster > Johnny Mercer It shouldn’t have taken 46 posts to get to [Johnny Mercer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td3cZK0QECY)! You can find lots more by clicking around here: [Songwriters Hall of Fame](https://www.songhall.org/profile/Johnny_Mercer) ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/49 "2020-05-17T01:27:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > :dubious: > > Might as well throw in at least some of The Ramones and Tom Petty. There is no comparison. Brian Wilson has consistently been highly acclaimed for the way he has built songs, using rich layered harmonies in a way that goes far beyond anything that the Ramones or Tom Petty did. Which is not to take away anything from them, because they were great musicians. But no, I don’t understand how anyone could listen to Pet Sounds and Smile and be “dubious” (the descriptor of your emoji) that Brian Wilson is **a great composer.** ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-us-composers-not-black-or-jewish/16784/50 "2020-05-17T02:10:54Z")
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