# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/201 "2010-09-14T06:52:55Z")
My final vote goes 1 Erich von Manstein ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/202 "2010-09-14T07:14:17Z")
John Paul Jones - 2 Yi-Sun Shin - 2 Vo Nguyen Giap - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/203 "2010-09-14T11:45:31Z")
Vo Nguyen Giap - 2 Belsarius - 2 Togo Heihachiro - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/204 "2010-09-14T13:53:36Z")
John Paul Jones - 2 (he’s still here?) Ulysses S. Grant - 2 (won because he was able to exploit a massive advantage, which is something, but not top-25) Erich von Manstein - 1 Belisarius? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/205 "2010-09-14T14:45:56Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > John Paul Jones - 2 (he’s still here?) > Ulysses S. Grant - 2 (won because he was able to exploit a massive advantage, which is something, but not top-25) Jones I’ll give you…I love the man’s attitude, but his career was two pitched gun duels (_Ranger_ v. _Drake_, _Bonhomme Richard_ v. _Serapis_) and some commerce raiding, if I am remembering it right (supported by a quick eyeballing of Wikipedia). As far as Grant goes…I’m not sure exploiting an advantage is a flaw in any commander, and certainly our list is filled with men (war is sexist!) whose careers exemplify massive advantages in one way or another. The standout examples of this would be Genghis Khan’s composite-bow-armed horsemen, able to outmaneuver and outrange everyone else; Alexander’s army, an incomparable combined-arms instrument to which nobody at the time had developed an answer; and perhaps Lord Nelson’s officer corps – yet no one is arguing to kick them off the list yet. After further thought, I think Grant (whose Western campaigns demonstrated what Bruce Catton called a tendency to “take immediate and devastating advantage” of any mistakes made by his opponents) should outlast someone like maybe Montgomery, who shared Grant’s logistical and occasionally his numbers advantages, but had a certain hesitancy in pressing the issue on several occasions. (I personally don’t blame him for this, as Britain’s manpower resources were stretched to their limits throughout the war, and I think Montgomery rightly felt moral compunction to minimize additional suffering. However, “minimizing suffering,” though a laudable and even manly goal, does not win one the coveted title of God of War.) Heck, I’ll throw Patton in too. He had Grant’s advantages, made similar mistakes (I blame him for the friendly-fire shootdown of the paratroops in the Sicily invasion and for bloody frontal assault at Metz as much as history blames Grant for the failure of leadership at the Crater and the bloody frontal assault at Cold Harbor), and won fewer battles to boot. I think we also tend to underrate Grant’s Vicksburg campaign – he was very active and imaginative in trying numerous approaches for months until he finally achieved his objective by a combination of extensive maneuver, logistical arrangements, frontal assault, and siege. This accomplishment captured an entire enemy army intact (his _second_ entire army bagged) and permanently split the opposing side’s territory. **Togo Heihachiro - 1 John Paul Jones - 1 Bernard Law Montgomery - 1 Vo Nguyen Giap - 1 George S. Patton - 1** . ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/206 "2010-09-14T15:21:46Z")
Grant was far more adroit in the West than in the East. He showed a much better grasp of manuever warfare during the Vicksburg campaign than he ever did against Lee. I almost think he was overwhelmed by the scale of things in the East; all he did against Lee was try to outflank him and then pound away. And then, as noted, we have the debacles of the Crater and Cold Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/207 "2010-09-14T15:30:39Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Grant was far more adroit in the West than in the East. He showed a much better grasp of manuever warfare during the Vicksburg campaign than he ever did against Lee. I almost think he was overwhelmed by the scale of things in the East; all he did against Lee was try to outflank him and then pound away. Well, two comments on that. That’s not all he did; he also coordinated offensives from City Point, from Tennessee, and from the Shenandoah Valley to cut Lee’s supply lines and surround him; it’s true that only the Valley campaign actually worked (Phil Sheridan, who was kicked out of this thread already for his efforts :)). He also tried to close out the South by ordering other simultaneous offensives in the West and by supporting Sherman. Then he tried to outflank the Army of Northern Virginia several times. On at least two occasions, he got the jump on them and almost pulled it off – the opposing commander just barely got blocking troops there in time. Possibly the main difficulty was that said opposing commander was _Robert E. Lee_…not that Grant was clumsy. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/208 "2010-09-14T18:39:33Z")
re: Yi-Sun Shin. At first glance a lot of his early victories can be papered over by the very substantial superiority of the Korean navy. The much lighter Japanese vessels lacked any gunpowder weapons at all early on and Shin’s resurrected and re-imagined “turtle boat” was for all intents and purposes a veritable dreadnought for which the Japanese had very little counter. But reading this account of the [Battle of Hansando](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hansando) makes clear his tactical acumen. And the Japanese adapted to Korean tactics, using arquebus fire and grappling and boarding tactics, such that they were able to win a major victory against the main combined Chinese and Korean fleet, virtually destroying it in a period when Shin had been relieved of command. The fact that a reinstated Shin was then able to reestablish naval superiority with a smallish scratch force also speaks to his ability. I think I have to give him props over John Paul Jones ( few fleet actions ) and Togo ( weakish opposition ), at the very least. So… **Attila** - 2. Still hanging in there, but needs to go. **John Paul Jones** - 2. Fine commander, but limited fleet experience. **Togo Heihachiro** - 1. Tsushima was impressive and something of a watershed moment for Japan’s emergence as a modern power, but I think the assessment that the Russian fleet was worn out and vulnerable is correct. Is someone willing to make an argument as to why Manstein is outclassed by Patton and Montgomery? Because I’m not sure I’m seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/209 "2010-09-14T21:55:15Z")
My picks for the round: John Paul Jones - 2 votes; inspiring captain but not a leader in the league of some of the others. George S Patton - 2 votes; hell of a character but not that inspiring I’m afraid. Attila the Hun - 1 vote; mixed record, largely aided by the Western empire’s weakness. Regarding Manstein, I agree he should be ranked ahead of Patton and Montgomery. In addition to the fall of France, von Manstein was heavily involved in the invasion of Poland and many of the key battles on the Eastern Front. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/210 "2010-09-15T03:15:15Z")
Same as before : \*\*Attila \*\*2 points **Henry V** 2 points **von Manstein** 1 point ETA : @Sailboat : my point is, he could have ordered the retreat and presented it to the Fuhrer as a _fait accompli_. He’d have gotten shot, but his men would be safe. Or he could have stuck with the man’s plan - but suggesting his underling take the fall for him is really craven. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/211 "2010-09-15T03:50:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Same as before : > > \*\*Attila \*\*2 points > **Henry V** 2 points > **von Manstein** 1 point Henry V went out last round, so you could re-allocate those two points if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/212 "2010-09-15T16:31:36Z")
Too late, alas. The votes in our 13th round: **John Paul Jones - 9 Vo Nguyen Giap - 8** Attila the Hun, Erich von Manstein - 5 each Togo Heihachiro - 4 George S. Patton - 3 Belisarius, Ulysses S. Grant, William T. Sherman, Yi-Sun Shin - 2 each Bernard Montgomery - 1 The two boldfaced guys above are now gone. That leaves: Akbar the Great: Conquered much of India Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Attila the Hun: Scourge of God, and Rome. Belisarius: Justinian’s hammer Napoleon Bonaparte: Conquered most of Europe Arthur Currie: Vimy Ridge; only sane WW1 leader? Frederick the Great: Prussian king and battlefield genius Gaius Marius: Most important military reforms ever? Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Ulysses S. Grant: Won final victory for Union Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson: Embodiment of maneuver and offense Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests. Erich von Manstein: His plan conquered France Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Bernard Montgomery: British commander at El Alamein Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Oda Nobunaga: First great unifier of Japan George Patton: Armored warfare advocate Phillip II of Macedon: Alexander’s father, set the stage Erwin Rommel: Germany’s Desert Fox Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Timur-e-Lang: The scourge of Western Asia Togo Heihachiro: Japanese naval victor against Russians George Washington: Determined general; won American independence Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Yi-Sun Shin: Noteworthy Korean admiral Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap The next round will conclude at noon EST on Fri. Sept. 17. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/213 "2010-09-15T16:37:14Z")
George Patton 2 Bernard Montgomery 2 Togo Heihachiro 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/214 "2010-09-15T17:07:56Z")
Togo Heihachiro, who had a far better fleet than the Russians - 2 Bernard Montgomery, notorious for being over-over-prepared before daring to go into battle, and can be largely blamed for the Arnhem debacle, to boot - 2 Attila the Hun, just overrated - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/215 "2010-09-15T17:40:44Z")
Sherman -2 Togo Heihachiro - 1 Erich von Manstein -2 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/216 "2010-09-15T23:03:57Z")
Sad to see Giap, the only living leader, gone. My votes: George s. Patton - 2 points Attila the Hun - 2 points. Philip II of Macedon - 1 point, forged the army that made his son Great but doomed forever to live in his shadow. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/217 "2010-09-15T23:18:38Z")
Attila the Hun - seriously defeated at the Battle of Châlons. 2 points. Montgomery - also overrated. 2 points. Grant: a grinder, not a genius. 1 point. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/218 "2010-09-16T01:36:11Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Henry V went out last round, so you could re-allocate those two points if you’d like. Gah. Dammit, now I got to pick another guy at random ! 😛 Allright, then. \*\*Attila \*\*2 points **von Manstein** 2 points and **Togo Heiashiro** seems on the way to go, so 1 point for him. A word in defense of Montgomery : while his over-prepared nature is hardly disputable (though depending on where you stand, you might write it up in the “pros” column rather than the “cons”), I don’t think it’s fair to lay Market Garden entirely at his feet. His original plan was much more limited and achievable - then it got groupthink circlejerked to hell and back, moved forward without letting him do his usual preparations, not to mention Eisenhower himself pushed to get it underway sooner, to make a bolder assault and to involve the US Airborne Infantry since he was getting flak for not using them any more after their success on D-Day (mostly because the Allies advanced too fast and kept overrunning the target drop zones). Combined arms manoeuvres within a single nation are already iffy at the best of times but hoping for smooth international combined arms operations is hopelessly optimistic, even more so in a heavily time-sensitive setting… As is launching overly risky operations to “have the war over by Christmas”. Slow and steady wins the race with limited casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/219 "2010-09-16T02:49:04Z")
Finally about to fall? Erich von Manstein – 2 points Togo Heihachiro – 2 points Why not… Attila the Hun – 1 point ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/220 "2010-09-16T07:52:14Z")
Another word in defence of Monty: the operation as a whole was wildly successful. They just didn’t get to Arnhem. It was, quite literally, a bridge too far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=12)