# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/241 "2010-09-20T10:51:10Z")
Voting’s getting more difficult by the round… Let’s see : **Erich von Manstein** 2 points \*\*Philip II of Macedon \*\*2 points \*\*Yi Sun Shin \*\*- 1 point ETA : also, can someone provide more details on Gustavius Adolphus ? I know absolutely nothing about him, didn’t even know his name until this thread… ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/242 "2010-09-20T13:12:28Z")
**George S. Patton - 2 Gaius Marius - 1 Akbar the Great - 1 Arthur Currie - 1** Too bad Patton couldn’t have gone out locked in head-to-head competition with Monty. 🙂 Currie I have mixed feelings about, as trench warfare seems to sharply curtail much of the exercise of generalship (certainly it eliminates _maneuver_ entirely). But overall he doesn’t seem to have been in the big leagues with the world conquerors and nation-builders to whom we are narrowing down. I’m jumping on the Akbar the Great bandwagon here. Not only was his first “conquest” fairly embarrassing, to cite Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Akbar decided early in his reign that he should eliminate the threat of Sher Shah’s dynasty, and decided to lead an army against the strongest of the three, Sikandar Shah Suri, in the Punjab[citation needed]. He left Delhi under the regency of Tardi Baig Khan. Sikandar Shah Suri presented no major concern for Akbar, and often withdrew from territory as Akbar approached.[citation needed] > > The Hindu king Hemu, however, commanding the Afghan forces, defeated the Mughal army and captured Delhi on 6 October 1556.[22] Urged by Bairam Khan, who remarshalled the Mughal army before Hemu could consolidate his position, Akbar marched on Delhi to reclaim it.[25] Akbar’s army, led by Bairam Khan, met the larger forces of Hemu on 5 November 1556 at the Second Battle of Panipat, 50 miles (80 km) north of Delhi. The battle was going in Hemu’s favour when an arrow pierced Hemu’s eye, rendering him unconscious. The leaderless army soon capitulated and Hemu was captured and executed.[26] Here we have a situation where he advances on one neighbor, who simply withdraws and lures him farther afield, whereupon another neighboring state seizes his capital. He promptly retraces his steps and has a _subordinate_ retake the capital by a lucky shot felling the enemy leader (again, not leading in person, as **Tamerlane** mentioned). It appears he reorganized the Mughal army by dividing the officers into _33_ classes, a system which seems overcomplicated. I have a hard time believing Manstein deserves removal from the list yet – Keegan considers him the best German general of WWII, and there’s some stiff competition there. Props for the iconoclastic opening shot at TJ Jackson, **Elendil’s Heir**. Jackson may be a case where the man’s occasional imperfections – particularly his slowness in the Seven Days’ campaign – are outweighed by the dazzling perfection of his other campaigns. The military guys I have talked to get all starry-eyed about the Valley campaign. . ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/243 "2010-09-20T13:59:38Z")
George S. Patton - 2 Philip II of Macedon - 2 Ulysses S. Grant - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/244 "2010-09-20T16:40:10Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Here we have a situation where he advances on one neighbor, who simply withdraws and lures him farther afield, whereupon another neighboring state seizes his capital. He promptly retraces his steps and has a _subordinate_ retake the capital by a lucky shot felling the enemy leader (again, not leading in person, as **Tamerlane** mentioned). It should be noted that at the time Akbar was a few days shy of his 14th birthday and under a regency run by Bairam Khan - he was not yet in full executive power and wouldn’t be for a few years. Also that wikipedia account is confusing. Hemu was in fact leading the Suri armies or rather one faction of them - he was the “advisor” to Muhammed Adil Shah Suri and had been busy stomping out other contenders in the dynasty which had split into four parts after 1554. Hemu was virtually the uncrowned king of Adil’s state and he was the one advancing, taking advantage of the death of Akbar’s father. He was de facto usurping power from the Sur dynasty he had served for years and eliminating the Mughals all in one fell swoop. He came very close to succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/245 "2010-09-21T03:26:11Z")
Sorry for the delay in tallying. The votes in our 15th round: **Erich von Manstein - 9 George S. Patton - 9 Philip II of Macedon - 6 Gaius Marius - 6** Yi-Sun Shin - 5 Akbar the Great - 4 Arthur Currie, William T. Sherman - 2 each U.S. Grant, Stonewall Jackson - 1 each The four boldfaced leaders above are now gone. That leaves: Akbar the Great: Conquered much of India Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Belisarius: Justinian’s hammer Napoleon Bonaparte: Conquered most of Europe Arthur Currie: Vimy Ridge; only sane WW1 leader? Frederick the Great: Prussian king and battlefield genius Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Ulysses S. Grant: Won final victory for Union Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson: Embodiment of maneuver and offense Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Oda Nobunaga: First great unifier of Japan Erwin Rommel: Germany’s Desert Fox Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Timur-e-Lang: The scourge of Western Asia George Washington: Determined general; won American independence Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Yi-Sun Shin: Noteworthy Korean admiral Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius The next round will conclude at noon EST on Weds. Sept. 22. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/246 "2010-09-21T07:18:16Z")
1 - Hannibal. Has a good press, but got thrashed in the end. 1 - Rommel. Thrashed by Monty. 1 - Arthur Currie. Not in the same league as the others 2 - Sherman. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/247 "2010-09-21T13:27:55Z")
Akbar the Great, for the reasons earlier stated - 2 Arthur Currie, ditto - 2 Stonewall Jackson, ditto - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/248 "2010-09-22T06:55:59Z")
**Akbar the Great** - 2. A brilliant ruler, not necessarily a brilliant general. **Ulysses S. Grant** - 2. Grant was a good general - the Vicksburg campaign is abundant proof of that. But though I’ve been excoriated before for my overwhelming ignorance on the subject, I can’t help but feel that Grant’s Overland Campaign was a horrendous and possibly unnecessary waste of men. **Yi Sun-Shin** - Probably time. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/249 "2010-09-22T12:48:40Z")
Not too many votes this cycle. \*\*Akbar the Great - 2 Arthur Currie - 2 Julius Caesar - 1\*\* Starting to think we should perhaps have separated naval campaigns into another topic. How am I supposed to compare Nelson and Yi Sun-Shin to Belisarius or Jackson? It feels like the achievements are so different. Speaking of the above…I was going to join the chorus against Yi Sun-Shin at this point, partly because what I see on Wikipedia seems sparse enough to make me wonder how much is really known about him and how much is mythologized (seems to be a recurring problem with historical figures)…but I also think that could just be a byproduct of Eurocentricism among English-language Wikians. Yi Sun-Shin’s career compares favorably to Nelson’s if what I did manage to find is true; 23 victories in several campaigns, including a surprise descent on a complacent enemy fleet in port very reminiscent of Nelson’s Battle of the Nile. He’s also credited with winning several engagements decisively as a numerical underdog, seizing the initiative and pressing his advantage during periods of enemy passivity, and showing patience in allowing an allied land campaign to do some of the dirty work for him. That adds up to a stellar career if the Korean histories are relatively trustworthy, so I’ll withhold my strike against him. Instead, I’ll be iconoclastic and throw my vote against Caesar. His conquests appear to be mainly Gaul…he staged a “demonstration” in Germanica, and his major invasion of Britain came to nothing. Gaul needed a lot of re-pacification. More to the point, the “reporting” problem is different here – we have detailed reports of his campaigns, they just happen to be _from him,_ a famous manipulator and politician _par excellence_. Even taking his self-description at face value, the campaigns don’t seem to be as awesome as I had remembered them; his masterpiece, the Gallic wars, was conducted against divided foes (and the History Channel recently suggested Caesar’s main motivation was the discovery of gold in several places in Gaul at that time) using fairly conventional tactics, relying mainly on the awesome instrument of the Roman Legion. And when the enemies finally united, they gave him trouble until the great battle at Alesia, the decisive moment of which was a massed night assault on his defensive spikes and entanglement obstacles…by largely _naked_ Celtic warriors who had _tied themselves together with ropes_. In some areas of the circumvallation, the Romans merely _heard_ the attack go wrong; it never even reached them. I’m going to regard that as another case of a substandard opponent diluting one’s legacy. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/250 "2010-09-22T14:51:53Z")
**Akbar** - 2 **Yi Sun Shin** - 2 **Arthur Currie** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/251 "2010-09-22T18:03:15Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Instead, I’ll be iconoclastic and throw my vote against Caesar. His conquests appear to be mainly Gaul…he staged a “demonstration” in Germanica, and his major invasion of Britain came to nothing. Gaul needed a lot of re-pacification. > > I’m going to regard that as another case of a substandard opponent diluting one’s legacy. He also “conquered” the Roman Republic ;). You’re forgetting the very far-ranging [civil war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_civil_war) he won against very considerable opposition, winning from one end of the Mediterranean to the other and most points in between. At many battles he was outnumbered, sometimes decisively so - check out [Pharsalus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus), as pretty and as impressive a victory as anything ever achieved by Hannibal. Throughout the civil war it was largely Roman army against Roman army and I can’t imagine a tougher opponent than that. But not just Romans and Gauls - the famous “Vini, Vidi, Vici” came as a result of [Zela](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zela). And less you think Pompey ( earlier eliminated from this list ) was a pushover, remember that one of the most important generals opposing Caesar was Caesar’s very own lieutenant from the Gallic Wars, the exceptionally able [Titus Labienus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Labienus). No, if anyone saw equal opposition it was Julius Caesar ( well, also Hannibal and some others 🙂 ). The man _appears_ to have been just a ferociously talented general. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/252 "2010-09-22T21:11:00Z")
It’s starting to get a little more difficult now… My three: Akbar the Great - 2 votes Yi Sun Shin - 2 votes Arthur Currie - 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/253 "2010-09-22T22:33:14Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Caesar’s hagiography Not only that, but the book he wrote about his wars in Gaul is still one of the go-to manuals for would-be generals and strategists, on par with Sun Tsu’s Art of War. Which, in my opinion, places him one notch above many of the others in the list : not only did he lead his men to victories, but in a way his ghost still does ! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/254 "2010-09-23T00:35:31Z")
Sorry for another delay in tallying. Been a helluva busy week. The votes in our 16th round: **Akbar the Great - 10 Arthur Currie - 8** Yi-Sun Shin - 4 U.S. Grant, William T. Sherman - 2 each Julius Caesar, Hannibal, Stonewall Jackson, Erwin Rommel - 1 each The two boldfaced leaders above are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Belisarius: Justinian’s hammer Napoleon Bonaparte: Conquered most of Europe Frederick the Great: Prussian king and battlefield genius Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Ulysses S. Grant: Won final victory for Union Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson: Embodiment of maneuver and offense Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Oda Nobunaga: First great unifier of Japan Erwin Rommel: Germany’s Desert Fox Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Timur-e-Lang: The scourge of Western Asia George Washington: Determined general; won American independence Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Yi-Sun Shin: Noteworthy Korean admiral Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie The next round will conclude at noon EST on Mon. Sept. 27 (I’m going to be out of town, with iffy Internet access). Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/255 "2010-09-23T02:21:59Z")
Didn’t get a chance to vote in that truncated last round, but looks like I’m first out of the gate this time: Yi-Sun Shin – 2 (finally his farewell?) Since none of them are going to (barring a major upset) emerge triumphant anyway: Oda Nobunaga – 1 Subutai – 1 Georgy Zhukov – 1 ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/256 "2010-09-23T14:43:02Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Since none of them are going to (barring a major upset) emerge triumphant anyway: > > Oda Nobunaga – 1 > Subutai – 1 > Georgy Zhukov – 1 You’re probably right, which is a shame. I don’t know much about Zhukov or Subutai, but Nobunaga was a great general (though to be honest, I would have included his successor, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, in this game instead). The Battle of Nagashino and the Battle of Okehazama make a pretty good case for Nobunaga. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/257 "2010-09-23T16:32:12Z")
Zhukov and Rommel seem to be the only generals left representing WWII. Which, in case you forgot, was the biggest war in human history. Seeing as how Zhukov was arguably the best general in the whole conflict, I think he should survive for awhile longer. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/258 "2010-09-23T16:59:39Z")
On Gustavus Adolphus, the Intermediate Impact section of [this Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Breitenfeld_(1631)) on the Battle of Breitenfeld goes into pretty good detail on his tactical innovations: he successfully improved on the deployment of gunpowder weapons, both by increasing the mix of muskets in his infantry lines (at the expense of pikemen) and by deploying lighter, more maneuverable field artillery than had been used before. [This wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavus_Adolphus_and_Military_Reform) seems somewhat hagiographic, but touches on another point: Adolphus managed to squeeze a much larger and more professional army of conscripts out of Sweden than one would have expected from such a relatively sparsely populated country. Also, unlike some of the potentates who have been eliminated, Adolphus led his troops in the field, which led to his death at an early age in battle. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/259 "2010-09-23T17:25:26Z")
1 - Hannibal. Has a good press, but got thrashed in the end. 1 - Rommel. Thrashed by Monty. 1 - Yi-Sun Shin. Not a patch on Nelson. 2 - Sherman. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/260 "2010-09-23T17:44:28Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Seeing as how Zhukov was arguably the best general in the whole conflict, I think he should survive for awhile longer. Oh come on. All he did was: [ul] [li]Defeat the Japanese so decisively before the war really got started that they never messed with Russia again, even while being in a state of war (Khalkin-Gol)[/li] [li]Plan the defense for the greatest siege of the war (Leningrad) during a period when his country was being routed and defeated everywhere else[/li] [li]Stop the Nazi advance just outside Moscow, saving the capital, and threw them onto the defensive for the first time[/li] [li]Supervise the greatest defensive stand in the war at Stalingrad, and organize the annihilating encirclement counterattack that turned it into Germany’s first great defeat [/li] [li]Coordinate two armies and a fleet to open a supply line to the besieged city (Operation Iskra, Leningrad)[/li] [li]Share some credit for winning the greatest tank battle of all time (Kursk) – particularly the counteroffensive, as opposed to the fixed-position defensive part[/li] [li]Lift the siege of Leningrad at last[/li] [li]Destroy the center of the German front in a decisive set-piece battle (Operation Bagration)[/li] [li]Lead the great war-winning advance from central Russia into Germany, including smashing the German stand in Poland[/li] [li]Take Berlin, ending the European war[/ul][/li] That’s not only a laundry list of the battles of the Eastern Front, the most titanic land campaign of all time; that’s also a siege, the worst city battle ever (maybe the worst _two_ if you count Berlin – and one time Zhukov played defense, the other time, offense, winning both decisively) , a set-piece offensive, rapid exploitation, the lifting of a siege, coordination with naval forces, several counterstrokes, and several encirclements. He repeatedly annihilated large enemy forces with terrific fighting reputations. One of his signature strengths was the ability to husband reserves carefully in times of enormous pressure so well that he usually had the ability to go over to the offensive the moment he judged the enemy was sufficiently exhausted or entangled. His very first significant battle is instructive. The first-rate Japanese Kwantung Army tested Soviet readiness and resolve at Khalkin-Gol. After a build-up and a period of stalemate, Zhukov’s response featured a boring frontal attack that distracted the Japanese from a surprise late double envelopment by armored columns, and the first significant use of Soviet tactical airpower. Buoyed by the memory of triumphs over Russia in 1905, the highly-regarded Japanese troops fought unrelentingly, but had their supply lines cut, were killed _en masse_ and rolled up and cleared away in 11 days. They never again dared attack the Soviets, even though they were prepared to fight on against the Americans after _two nuclear bombs_. This Japanese passivity enabled the Soviets to confidently shift large numbers of troops westward just in time for the defense of Moscow. One of those men happened to be named Zhukov. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=14)