# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/321 "2010-10-03T04:45:37Z")
Hanging around: Subutai – 2 First time on my list: Frederick the Great – 2 Returning to the ranks: Georgy Zhukov - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/322 "2010-10-04T13:24:02Z")
I like Themistocles for pulling out every trick in the arsenal (advance planning in funding the navy, exhortation, bribery, planted rumors, spies, threats, deceit, stealth, frontal attack) to survive an overwhelming Persian assault. But it appears that his battle record is pretty small for this august company. At Marathon he is reputed to be one of ten generals, but that’s not established, and there’s no indication I’ve seen that he was in charge. Artemisium was a painful draw – the Greek navy suffered losses it could ill afford, and it retreated when events on land made further fighting moot. I’ll grant that a painful draw was actually better than the outnumbered Greeks had any right to expect. Salamis was a stunning victory against terrible odds, and is justly famous. But it was only one battle. **Frederick the Great - 2 Gustavus Adolphus - 2 Themistocles - 1** ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/323 "2010-10-04T13:46:46Z")
Thermistocles - 2 William Tecumseh Sherman - 2 Lord Nelson - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/324 "2010-10-04T15:07:01Z")
2 votes each for **Napoleon** and **Alexander** , for the reasons stated before. I’ll hold my last vote in reserve for a bit - honestly, I’m not sure I care to cast it at all. This is getting tough - which is all to the good! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/325 "2010-10-04T15:12:57Z")
Just 48 minutes to go 'til today’s deadline, **Mr. Excellent** , for your final vote. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/326 "2010-10-04T15:57:03Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Just 48 minutes to go 'til today’s deadline, **Mr. Excellent** , for your final vote. A vote for **Frederick the Great** , then. Do I know how to cut it close or what? ETA: BTW, thank you, **Tamerlane** for your excellent short essays on these leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/327 "2010-10-04T16:00:20Z")
A bit of a hijack, but: Does anyone think there’d be an interest in a “Greatest _Living_ Military Leader” elimination game, or have we pretty much flogged this (cavalry) horse to death? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/328 "2010-10-04T18:08:10Z")
Dunno. Are there enough of them to make it worthwhile? And yes, thank you, **Tamerlane** , for the fine profiles. The votes in our 20th round: **Frederick the Great - 7 Napoleon Bonaparte - 6** William T. Sherman, Themistocles - 5 each Gustavus Adolphus, Subutai - 4 each Alexander the Great - 2 Hannibal, Lord Nelson, Georgy Zhukov - 1 each The boldfaced leaders above are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte The next round will conclude at noon EST on Weds. Oct. 6. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/329 "2010-10-04T18:09:26Z")
Well, my vote is easy then William Tecumseh Sherman 2 Thermistocles 2 Lord Nelson 1 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/330 "2010-10-04T18:11:35Z")
**Themistocles** - 2 **Lord Nelson** - 2 **Duke of Marlborough** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/331 "2010-10-04T19:41:45Z")
2 - Sherman 1 - Khalid ibn al-Walid - generalship isn’t enough to qualify here. 1 - Subutai 1 - Hannibal ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/332 "2010-10-04T19:47:31Z")
Gustavus Adolphus - 2 Khalid ibn al-Walid - 2 Subutai - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/333 "2010-10-04T19:54:25Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I like Themistocles for pulling out every trick in the arsenal (advance planning in funding the navy, exhortation, bribery, planted rumors, spies, threats, deceit, stealth, frontal attack) to survive an overwhelming Persian assault. But it appears that his battle record is pretty small for this august company. In defence of Themistocles, it was specified in the original thread that quantity was not a decisive factor. Further, generalship alone is not sufficient. Themistocles was not only a successful general, but he carried Athens and Greece behind him. And he did beat the Persians more than once. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/334 "2010-10-04T19:54:49Z")
2 votes for **Subutai** - nothing against him, but Genghis Khan just plain outclasses him. And one horse archer on this list goes a long, long way. 2 votes for **Khalid ibn Al-Walid** - the historical record just isn’t clear enough for him to earn a spot at this point. And a vote for the **Duke of Marlborough** - good, but not good enough, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/335 "2010-10-04T19:59:12Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > one horse archer on this list goes a long, long way. Why? Horse archers were the dominant military force in the world for roughly a thousand years, from roughly the time of Attila to the creation of industrial/gunpowder armies. Why are two horse archers too many when fivedudes in sandals (Alexander, Hannibal, Julius, Scipio, and Thermistocles) is perfectly fine? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/336 "2010-10-04T20:12:24Z")
I think Scipio was partial to fluffy bunny slippers, actually… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/337 "2010-10-05T07:05:17Z")
**William Tecumseh Sherman** - 2. **Themistocles** - 2. **Lord Nelson** - 1. Changed my mind on edit - bit of a coin toss. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/338 "2010-10-05T15:14:37Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > > one horse archer on this list goes a long, long way. > > Why? Horse archers were the dominant military force in the world for roughly a thousand years, from roughly the time of Attila to the creation of industrial/gunpowder armies. Why are two horse archers too many when fivedudes in sandals (Alexander, Hannibal, Julius, Scipio, and Thermistocles) is perfectly fine? Was a bit of a joke, perhaps a poor one. I do think, though, that Subutai is sufficiently similar to, and contemporaneous with, Genghi Khan, that we don’t need both of them on the list at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/339 "2010-10-05T15:30:06Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > > Why? Horse archers were the dominant military force in the world for roughly a thousand years, from roughly the time of Attila to the creation of industrial/gunpowder armies. Why are two horse archers too many when five dudes in sandals (Alexander, Hannibal, Julius, Scipio, and Thermistocles) is perfectly fine? > > Was a bit of a joke, perhaps a poor one. I do think, though, that Subutai is sufficiently similar to, and contemporaneous with, Genghi Khan, that we don’t need both of them on the list at this point. I came on a bit too strong with the riposte. Subutai is on my short list for the near future, since I’m not sure how much of his glory derived from the system the Great Khan put into place. I do also think the ranks of the ancient-mediterranean types need to be thinned a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/340 "2010-10-05T16:53:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In defence of Themistocles, it was specified in the original thread that quantity was not a decisive factor. Further, generalship alone is not sufficient. Themistocles was not only a successful general, but he carried Athens and Greece behind him. I’m less sanguine that political skills should be the decisive factor. Some of the guys we’ve eliminated (as well as some remaining on the list) were essentially pure warfighters, but first-rate ones. > [@Quartz](#): > > And he did beat the Persians more than once. Okay, my reading of events boiled down to “he only really beat the Persians once,” but I admit I was skimming. My understanding was that Artemisium was a draw inflicting casualties on the Greeks they could ill afford, and Marathon was not really the result of Themistocles’ generalship. Are you advancing a different interpretation of those events, or something else that I’ve overlooked? > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > > one horse archer on this list goes a long, long way. > > Why? Horse archers were the dominant military force in the world for roughly a thousand years, from roughly the time of Attila to the creation of industrial/gunpowder armies. I’d add John Keegan’s qualifier that horse hordes tended to reach the limits of military effectiveness a certain distance beyond the steppe, because the grasslands in “civilized” Europe (especially west of the Hungarian plain) simply cannot support the horseflesh required to mount large nomadic armies. Mongol warriors were supported by strings of up to 18 ponies per man, and they denuded large areas of grass. The filthy horse archers ruled unchallenged within a certain radius of action from their fodder, but they could not go everywhere (at least, not without suffering sufficient loss of horses as to limit their campaigns). > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Why are two horse archers too many when fivedudes in sandals (Alexander, Hannibal, Julius, Scipio, and Thermistocles) is perfectly fine? Agree the sandal vandals are a bit dense and some heads will roll. In general, I am even more stunned to see Napoleon Bonaparte go than I was to see Marse Robert (Lee) knocked out really early and Ol’ Blue Light (Jackson) go last round. I was trying to make a case for him…in fact, I was in the middle of working through Wikipedia’s exhaustive list of Napoleonic-era battles, eliminating all except ones Bonaparte personally commanded, and assigning a won-loss record. But I didn’t finish because it was taking so long! Over and over, “victory…victory…decisive victory…inconclusive…victory…tactical victory…decisive victory…” I don’t think today people remember how complex the period was, and how many times Napoleon completed dazzling concentrations in the face of numerically superior forces and rapid shifts of his center of effort. Sure, he overextended ultimately, but there’s something of a fine line between overextending and not meeting one’s full potential. Here’s how far I’d gotten: **A** • Battle of Aboukir 2 January – 20 February 1799 Decisive victory • Battle of Abensberg 20 April 1809 Complete victory • Siege of Acre 17 March – 20 May 1799 Unsuccessful siege • Battle of Arcis-sur-Aube 20–21 March 1814 Tactical victory, strategic loss • Battle of Arcole 15–17 November 1796 Victory • Battle of Aspern-Essling 22 May 1809 Defeat • Battle of Auerstadt 14 October 1806 Decisive victory • Battle of Austerlitz 2 December 1805 Decisive victory **B** • Battle of Bassano 8 September 1796 Victory • Battle of Bautzen 21 May 1813 Victory • Battle of Berezina 26–29 November 1812 Tactical defeat, strategic success • Battle of Borodino 7 September 1812 Pyrrhic victory **C** • Siege of Cádiz 5 February 1810, 24 August 1812 Unsuccessful siege • Battle of Castiglione 5 August 1796 Victory • Battle of Champaubert 10 February 1814 Victory • Battle of Château-Thierry 2 February 1814 Victory • Battle of Craonne 7 March 1814 Victory **D** • Battle of Dego 14–15 April 1796 Victory • Battle of Dresden 26–27 August 1813 Victory **E** • Battle of Eckmühl 22 April 1809 Victory We’re not even through all of “e” yet, the list goes on to “z,” and that’s 15 wins, 2 mixed-results, 2 null contests (abandoned sieges) and one defeat, all _personally_ commanded by Nappy. Bear in mind that even Genghis Khan didn’t face the kind of sustained opposition Napoleon did – he was finally defeated by the _sixth_ coalition formed against him, fighting almost the entire European world at that point _plus_ Russia, and his conduct of the campaign is still admired. The man had his weaknesses but military command was not one of them. Gustavus Adolphus outlasting him is basically a fluke. I had Bonaparte pegged as a shoo-in for top five at least, and a fighting chance (heh) for the finals. I certainly don’t regard Wellington as his equal; Wellington did defeat him, but just barely, and faced nothing like the sustained worldwide campaigns Nappy had dominated for so long. Logistics in Spain and India are great (although Napoleon also performed logistical miracles), and Wellington belongs somewhere on the list, but he’s just not on the same _scale_ as Napoleon. **Gustavus Adolphus - 2 Themistocles - 2 Lord Nelson - 1** Narrowly escaping my puny wrath this round are Caesar, Scipio, Wellington, and Marlborough, if only because I ran out of votes trying to clean up Gus and pick off a sandal vandal. Anyone amateur barrister of history care to argue _Caesar v. Scipio_ or _Wellington v. Marlborough?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=18)