# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/361 "2010-10-06T19:00:01Z")
Sherman 2 - we must stop his march! šŸ˜› Zhukov 2 - it was time _last_ time. Scipio 1 - one Roman is enuff, and it isnā€™t him. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/362 "2010-10-06T19:05:26Z")
Khalid ibn al-Walid - 2 Scipio Africanus - 2 Subutai - 1 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/363 "2010-10-07T01:06:36Z")
Wow, a lot has happened in the last week, and yet Sherman still hangs in there. My votes: Sherman - 2 votes: Scipio Africanus - 2 votes; Khalid ibn al-Walid - 1 vote. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/364 "2010-10-07T07:28:52Z")
Looks like I can repeat my votes: 2 - Sherman 1 - Khalid ibn al-Walid 1 - Subutai 1 - Hannibal I really donā€™t understand why people are voting for Scipio rather than the man he defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/365 "2010-10-07T14:05:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Looks like I can repeat my votes: > > 2 - Sherman > 1 - Khalid ibn al-Walid > 1 - Subutai > 1 - Hannibal > > I really donā€™t understand why people are voting for Scipio rather than the man he defeated. Because the man he defeated operated under absolutely insane logistical constraints, wholly isolated from resupply for much of his war on Rome, and still managed to come very close to taking down an enemy with rough parity in quality of troops and equipment. And of course, he was outnumbered. No one doubts that Scipio was a damn good general - but he never did anything as jaw-dropping as Hannibal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/366 "2010-10-07T14:49:53Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > [@Quartz](#): > > > > Looks like I can repeat my votes: > > > > 2 - Sherman > > 1 - Khalid ibn al-Walid > > 1 - Subutai > > 1 - Hannibal > > > > I really donā€™t understand why people are voting for Scipio rather than the man he defeated. > > Because the man he defeated operated under absolutely insane logistical constraints, wholly isolated from resupply for much of his war on Rome, and still managed to come very close to taking down an enemy with rough parity in quality of troops and equipment. And of course, he was outnumbered. No one doubts that Scipio was a damn good general - but he never did anything as jaw-dropping as Hannibal. Of course, I dinged Napoleon heavily for operating beyond anything he could support logistically - but unlike Napoleon, thereā€™s a fine argument to be made that Hannibal _wasnā€™t_ over-reaching himself. He lived off the land successfully for years. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/367 "2010-10-07T15:01:49Z")
Hannibal gets props for two reasons: 1. Achieving the seemingly-impossible in his invasion of Italy; and 2. Fighting, among many other successful actions, _the_ set-piece battle against which all others were measured by some for millenia - Cannae. However, his inability to decisively crack the Roman Italian coallition rendered all that ultimately futile ā€¦ though it may well have been truly an impossible task. At this level, the very top, only those who actually _did_ achieve the truly impossible need apply ā€¦ šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/368 "2010-10-07T15:47:32Z")
I donā€™t know enough about some of these (so no votes for me), but Scipio gets my vote for greatest of all time, but it wasnā€™t just for his military prowess, but also for also the way he treated those he defeated. Scipio is was a great general and a great diplomat. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/369 "2010-10-07T15:53:52Z")
Sticking with: Subutai ā€“ 2 Lord Nelson ā€“ 2 Bringing back (for what finally may be the last time): Georgy Zhukov ā€“ 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/370 "2010-10-07T15:59:27Z")
Not looking good for Sherman. Not a bad run for him considering heā€™s been picking up votes since the first round, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/371 "2010-10-08T14:17:02Z")
Does Genghis Khan deserve to outlast Subutai? The Khan seems to have united the Mongols and started the ball rolling, defeating and over-awing numerous rival tribes, and seems to have served as head of the nascent state and inculcated specific philosophies into his armies, and won battlesā€¦and place ā€œabsolute trustā€ in his generals. Subutai seems to have won _sixty-five_ battles in far-flung campaigns for _two_ different Khans (Ogedai after Genghisā€™ death). His coordinating separate columns (even separate offensives against different countries) hundreds of miles apart is legendary. Could one say Subutai had significantly _more_ military talent than Genghis, who was more a founding father, driving force, and idea man? Although it looks like the reverse opinion will boot Subutai this round, I will be an iconoclast put up a protest vote against Genghis. **Khalid ibn al-Walid - 2 Genghis Khan - 1 Lord Nelson - 1 Lord Wellington - 1** In further defense of Hannibal, he manhandled the Romans almost at will for a long time. This is _Rome_ weā€™re talking about ā€“ a cultural and military phenomenon essentially unmatched in human history (China arguably lasted longer as a civilization, depending on how you define dynastic changes, but lacked the ā€œalmost pathologicalā€ urge to kill its neighbors that the Romans visited on everyone they could reach for centuries). Speaking in the _long_ term (and Hannibal was only defeated by long-term strategy) the Romans beat _everybody_ from, say, the traditional ā€œfounding of the cityā€ date of 750 BC to the 400s AD, and their last gasp was arguably in 1453 AD. Beating Roman legions, anywhere, any time, is a big [expletive] deal, as Vice-President Biden might put it; doing so to a greater degree than anyone else in history is bigger; doing so over and over against different Roman commanders for 15+ years is heady stuff. add to this that the Carthaginian and allied forces were not nearly as uniform in equipment and training as the legions (indeed, more polyglot than many armies of the time) and the logistical difficulties and I have to say the manā€™s generalship was outstanding even among this bloody assembly. As a nation-builder he sucked, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/372 "2010-10-08T14:29:02Z")
Current vote leaders for those curious are Sherman at 11, followed by Shaā€™ab Khaled at 9, with a large group between 6 and 8. Not being terribly well-versed in the tactical details, Iā€™m voting from here on out based on a couple criteria: 1 - How significant was the historical impact of this generalā€™s victories? 2 - Did he lose, ever? (There are a fair number of remaining contenders for whom the answer is either ā€œnoā€ or ā€œonly a couple skirmishesā€). On those 2 criteria, I had Khalid in my top 5. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/373 "2010-10-08T17:56:59Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Does Genghis Khan deserve to outlast Subutai? > > Could one say Subutai had significantly _more_ military talent than Genghis, who was more a founding father, driving force, and idea man? I donā€™t think so. Even if Subudei was a superior strategist or tactician, and Iā€™m not sure we can say that he was for certain, the achievement of creating the Mongol imperial army in this case would bulk larger in my mind as a military _leader_. The reason Iā€™d argue this for Genghis and not for, say, Philip of Macedon over Alexander, is that we know that Genghis was _also_ a field general of considerable skill who was leading armies and planning campaigns until the day he died. Alexanderā€™s victories so overshadowed his fatherā€™s that Philip canā€™t really compete. By contrast Subedei is getting some credit here for simple longevity - he lived a very long time and unlike many older generals, age doesnā€™t seem to have dimmed his formidable abilities a bit. But Genghis always commanded the main thrust in every campaign until his death at ~60. For example it was Genghis who personally avenged the rare Mongol defeat at Parwan to Jalal al-Din by pursing him and defeating him at the Battle of the Indus. Itā€™s within the realm of possibility that as a pure general Subedei was superior, though I sure wouldnā€™t want to argue the point. But Genghis was both an excellent general AND a brilliant military reformer who created a polity. On balance his combined achievements even in a purely military sense looms over Subedeiā€™s. But that said Iā€™d probably be inclined to vote Subedei into the top 5 of this remaining crew ;). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/374 "2010-10-08T18:04:03Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > Does Genghis Khan deserve to outlast Subutai? > > > > Could one say Subutai had significantly _more_ military talent than Genghis, who was more a founding father, driving force, and idea man? > > I donā€™t think so. Even if Subudei was a superior strategist or tactician, and Iā€™m not sure we can say that he was for certain, the achievement of creating the Mongol imperial army in this case would bulk larger in my mind as a military _leader_. > > The reason Iā€™d argue this for Genghis and not for, say, Philip of Macedon over Alexander, is that we know that Genghis was _also_ a field general of considerable skill who was leading armies and planning campaigns until the day he died. Alexanderā€™s victories so overshadowed his fatherā€™s that Philip canā€™t really compete. By contrast Subedei is getting some credit here for simple longevity - he lived a very long time and unlike many older generals, age doesnā€™t seem to have dimmed his formidable abilities a bit. But Genghis always commanded the main thrust in every campaign until his death at ~60. For example it was Genghis who personally avenged the rare Mongol defeat at Parwan to Jalal al-Din by pursing him and defeating him at the Battle of the Indus. > > Itā€™s within the realm of possibility that as a pure general Subedei was superior, though I sure wouldnā€™t want to argue the point. But Genghis was both an excellent general AND a brilliant military reformer who created a polity. On balance his combined achievements even in a purely military sense looms over Subedeiā€™s. > > But that said Iā€™d probably be inclined to vote Subedei into the top 5 of this remaining crew ;). I think there is a temptation (at least, I know I have it) to attempt to vote based on categories for the top spots - so, one dirty horse archer (Temujin OR Subedei), one sandal-and-toga type (Ceasar OR Scipio), one Brit (Nelson OR Welly OR Marlborough), etc. Dunno if there is any reason for it, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/375 "2010-10-08T18:26:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think there is a temptation (at least, I know I have it) to attempt to vote based on categories for the top spots - so, one dirty horse archer (Temujin OR Subedei), one sandal-and-toga type (Ceasar OR Scipio), one Brit (Nelson OR Welly OR Marlborough), etc. I agree that does seem to be a motivator, but by this point I think that needs to be tossed aside. Despite the user name Iā€™ve got a lot more English ancestors than Mongol ;), but at this stage I canā€™t help but think that Subedeiā€™s achievements bulk larger than Wellingtonā€™s, Marlboroughā€™s or Nelsonā€™s. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/376 "2010-10-08T18:33:36Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I agree that does seem to be a motivator, but by this point I think that needs to be tossed aside. Despite the user name Iā€™ve got a lot more English ancestors than Mongol ;), but at this stage I canā€™t help but think that Subedeiā€™s achievements bulk larger than Wellingtonā€™s, Marlboroughā€™s or Nelsonā€™s. A frightening thought - the leader of dirty horse archers yelling ā€œTally ho!ā€ as his horde fills his hapless victims full of arrows, to say nothing of the Monty Python-inspired horrors of his infamous ā€œtower of tophatted skullsā€ ā€¦ ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/377 "2010-10-08T19:13:57Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > [@Quartz](#): > > > > I really donā€™t understand why people are voting for Scipio rather than the man he defeated. > > Because the man he defeated operated under absolutely insane logistical constraints, wholly isolated from resupply for much of his war on Rome, and still managed to come very close to taking down an enemy with rough parity in quality of troops and equipment. And of course, he was outnumbered. No one doubts that Scipio was a damn good general - but he never did anything as jaw-dropping as Hannibal. Not really. Donā€™t forget that Hannibal was also defeated by the Cunctator. A great part of being a general is knowing when to fight and when to withdraw. Hannibal failed at the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/378 "2010-10-08T20:38:50Z")
Great discussions, as always. Iā€™m learning a lot about ancient warriors. The votes in our 22nd round: **William T. Sherman - 11** Khalid ibn al-Walid, Lord Nelson - 8 each Scipio Africanus, Subutai - 7 Georgy Zhukov - 5 Genghis Khan, Hannibal, Duke of Marlborough, Duke of Wellington - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Romeā€™s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal Subutai: Genghis Khanā€™s top general Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. Oā€™Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman The next round will conclude at noon EST on Mon. Oct. 11. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/379 "2010-10-08T20:48:59Z")
2 - Hannibal 2 - Khalid 1 - Subutai ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/380 "2010-10-08T20:51:53Z")
Huh, Khalid lives to fight another day. Lord Nelson - 2 Scipio Africanus - 2 The only two who didnā€™t get votes that round were Alexander and Julius Caesar. I think everyone has gotten at least one vote in at least one round by now. Holding off on my last vote for the moment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=20)