# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/381 "2010-10-08T21:46:30Z")
**Georgy Zhukov** - 2. Good. But not top o’ the heap good. **Lord Nelson** - 2. The archetype of the great admiral, but punching above his weight at this point. I’m going to reserve my final vote as well. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/382 "2010-10-08T21:59:16Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > On those 2 criteria, I had Khalid in my top 5. I hope I’m not committing ethnocentrism by saying I have been swayed by some of the arguments Tamerlane made [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926657&postcount=231) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12927086&postcount=232) that Khalid’s reputation may be somewhat exaggerated (although as I have noted before that’s probably true to some degree of every one of our candidates), that he did not _innovate_ as much as some of our other candidates (Nelson, Khan, Alexander, even Scipio), and that he may be sponging some credit off other less well-known Arab commanders. That said, I do find Tamerlane’s sharply-observed point that Khalid’s reputation survived his falling out of official favor compelling. I am trying to keep my mind open on the man; this is not one of the periods about which I can claim to be well-read. > [@Quartz](#): > > Not really. Don’t forget that Hannibal was also defeated by the Cunctator. I would have said, stalemated by the Cunctator (and as an aside, I can’t make up my mind whether that’s the least or the _most_ badass of the nicknames given to the professional killers on our list.) > [@Quartz](#): > > A great part of being a general is knowing when to fight and when to withdraw. Hannibal failed at the latter. Ah yes, as so eloquently formulated by that great strategist, [Rogers](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo). > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The votes in our 22nd round: > > **William T. Sherman - 11** War is hell. . ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/383 "2010-10-10T05:22:43Z")
I’ll just repost my picks from last round: Subutai – 2 Lord Nelson – 2 Georgy Zhukov – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/384 "2010-10-10T05:52:18Z")
I’m not a military expert by any means, but I’ve been wondering if Genghis and Subutai did not get a considerable advantage in technology over their opponents that makes their generalship less impressive than it seems. That is, the recurve bow and horsemen trained pretty much from birth to ride and shoot accurately gave them a tremendous advantage over their adversaries … their armies could move faster than their opponents’ armies, and fire more accurately and about as fast as their stationary enemies, while they themselves were moving targets. When you have a tool like that, and your opponent has nothing like that, does it take as much generalship to win? I’m not voting because I don’t know enough to vote intelligently, but I have been thinking about this as I read the debates about Khan and Subutai. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/385 "2010-10-10T05:55:12Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > > On those 2 criteria, I had Khalid in my top 5. > > I hope I’m not committing ethnocentrism by saying I have been swayed by some of the arguments Tamerlane made [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926657&postcount=231) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12927086&postcount=232) that Khalid’s reputation may be somewhat exaggerated (although as I have noted before that’s probably true to some degree of every one of our candidates), that he did not _innovate_ as much as some of our other candidates (Nelson, Khan, Alexander, even Scipio), and that he may be sponging some credit off other less well-known Arab commanders I have had my ignorance about Khalid well fought. But he’s in pretty august company here. And my judgement is that he’s not as good as some of the others. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/386 "2010-10-10T08:28:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not a military expert by any means, but I’ve been wondering if Genghis and Subutai did not get a considerable advantage in technology over their opponents that makes their generalship less impressive than it seems. Not particularly. The recurve bow was not unique to the Mongols. It pre-dated them by millenia and was in use by most of their adversaries. Also, remember that many of said adversaries were quite mobile as well. The Qangli ( Kankali ) Turks that fought for the Khwarizm Shah and the Kipchak Turks ( Cumans/Polovsty ) of the Russian steppe were of related stock and fought in the same manner as the Mongols and other steppe nomads ( in a very general sense ) and with essentially the same equipment. The similarity becomes all the more apparent when one considers the rapidity with which they were incorporated into the Mongol polity and its armies. So too, the Seljuqs of Rum ( ultimately unsuccessful against the Mongols ) and the Mamluks ( successful ) - dedicated cavalry, emphasis on the horse-archer. The Jurchen of the Jin dynasty and the Europeans, both heavy cavalry-centric societies, were a bit more cumbersome. As were the armies of the Sung. But they had substantial superiority in other areas such as body armor. No lightly armored Mongol trooper on his short little pony was going to be a match for them in melee, one on one. Which of course is why the Mongols avoided those situations unless they had every other advantage. No it was discipline, organization, discipline, excellent leadership and, of course, discipline, that made the difference. The combination of parade-ground precision and an excellent officer corps allowed them to transform bog-standard nomad tactics that dated back to the Scythians into something a step above. But the basic equipment and tactics they used wouldn’t have seemed unusually advanced a thousand years earlier ( gunpowder excepted, I suppose ). ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/387 "2010-10-11T01:26:04Z")
**Duke of Marlborough** - 2 **Lord Nelson** - 2 **Subutai** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/388 "2010-10-11T02:40:30Z")
Veeeeeeery interesting. Khalid ibn al-Walid - 2 Subutai - 2 Duke of Marlborough - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/389 "2010-10-11T05:16:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not a military expert by any means, but I’ve been wondering if Genghis and Subutai did not get a considerable advantage in technology over their opponents that makes their generalship less impressive than it seems. > > … > > When you have a tool like that, and your opponent has nothing like that, does it take as much generalship to win? Well, this is an issue not limited specifically to technology and not just to the mongols. By this point in the elimination, many of the survivors possessed military instruments with significant advantages. Alexander the Great is probably the archetypal example. In particular his infantry, equipped with massed long pikes (the Macedonian _sarissa_), initiated a military system that would be used with great success all the way through the Renaissance and even beyond, if you count bayonets. His cavalry tactics were extremely advanced for the age, and if his missile troops weren’t exceptional, his “artillery park” was – the (new) development of torsion catapults led to very effective siegecraft. The use of these arms together – the first significant experiment in combined arms – was a tactical puzzle to which no one had the answer. Alexander was brilliant and aggressive, but also armed with an incomparable instrument (almost literally – no army of the day was anything like a match for the Greek/Macedonian). The Romans left on the list, Caesar and Scipio, had _Roman legions_ at their command, talk about a first-rate military instrument. Hannibal had _war elephants_ for at least some of his battles. Wellington’s Indian campaigns were characterized by the total superiority Western gunpowder armies usually showed against more loosely organized Eastern armies. Simply put, even musket-equipped Eastern armies with rough technological parity proved to be no match for the closely ordered, carefully-directed Western troops, who stood under fire and took their losses to deliver close-range, devastating volleys. The results were typically fantastically one-sided – at the Battle of Adgaon the British took either 346 or 361 casualties (killed, wounded, or missing) and killed 5000 foes outright (I haven’t found a count of the wounded)…at Assaye, Wellington (who was then known as Wellesley) had 9500 trops and 17 cannon against 50,000 troops and 100+ cannon, and despite being hugely outnumbered, inflicted 6000 casualties and took 98 cannons at the cost of 1602 casualties of his own (and voiced regret his losses had been so high!). Quite a few of these gentlemen had superb militaries. I don’t quite know if puts them all on a level playing field or not, but it should be borne in mind. That doesn’t take away from their achievements – in many cases, they themselves are responsible for _creating_ the military advantage or for using it in novel ways. . ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/390 "2010-10-11T07:36:00Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Quite a few of these gentlemen had superb militaries. Almost all those who are left had superb militaries. Part of being a great military leader and not just a great general is developing and maintaining a superb military. Generalship itself is not enough. Wellington and Caesar really score here; Khalid and Hannibal don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/391 "2010-10-11T08:29:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > . Wellington and Caesar really score here; Khalid and Hannibal don’t. Not sure I agree. For Khalid as we discussed earlier, he’s been given a lot of hard to verify credit for developing tactical doctrine and imparting professional organization to the early Arab armies. One can partially dismiss that for that lack of verifiable evidence, but I wouldn’t completely throw the notion out. _Somebody_ turned a bunch of Bedouin and tribal desert townfolk into an actual army of conquest. Hannibal meanwhile actually did an excellent job turning a sometimes scratch, disparate force into an effective fighting machine. Iberian, Balearic, North African ( Gaetulians, Libyans, Libyo-Phoenicians and Numidians ) and Gallic troops, many essentially units of barbarians. While the Hellenic kingdoms also relied heavily on mercenaries, they tended to be primarily Greek and much more standardized ( i.e. predominantly hoplites ).That Hannibal was able to weld this far more multi-national group into an army efficient enough to pull of three of the most startlingly complete victories against the more homogeneous and professional forces of the Romans and their allies was really a remarkable feat ( one of several ). It’s one of the reasons I rank him above Scipio. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/392 "2010-10-11T16:02:13Z")
Last moment \*\*Wellington - 2 Nelson - 2 Subutai - 1 \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/393 "2010-10-11T16:05:30Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@Quartz](#): > > > > . Wellington and Caesar really score here; Khalid and Hannibal don’t. > > Not sure I agree. For Khalid as we discussed earlier, he’s been given a lot of hard to verify credit for developing tactical doctrine and imparting professional organization to the early Arab armies. One can partially dismiss that for that lack of verifiable evidence, but I wouldn’t completely throw the notion out. _Somebody_ turned a bunch of Bedouin and tribal desert townfolk into an actual army of conquest. > > Hannibal meanwhile actually did an excellent job turning a sometimes scratch, disparate force into an effective fighting machine. Iberian, Balearic, North African ( Gaetulians, Libyans, Libyo-Phoenicians and Numidians ) and Gallic troops, many essentially units of barbarians. While the Hellenic kingdoms also relied heavily on mercenaries, they tended to be primarily Greek and much more standardized ( i.e. predominantly hoplites ).That Hannibal was able to weld this far more multi-national group into an army efficient enough to pull of three of the most startlingly complete victories against the more homogeneous and professional forces of the Romans and their allies was really a remarkable feat ( one of several ). It’s one of the reasons I rank him above Scipio. Concur. Caesar made an already-crack military perform better; Hannibal defeated that same military system repeatedly with a mongrel force he’d trained himself. His main problem was that the Roman system could absorb defeat after defeat after defeat and keep coming. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/394 "2010-10-11T16:08:44Z")
**Sailboat** , sorry, just a bit too late! The votes in our 23rd round: **Lord Nelson - 8** Khalid ibn al-Walid, Subutai - 4 each Scipio Africanus, Duke of Marlborough, Georgy Zhukov - 3 each Hannibal - 2 The boldfaced leader(s) above are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson The next round will conclude at noon EST on Weds. Oct. 13. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/395 "2010-10-11T16:11:56Z")
Scipio Africanus 2 Duke of Wellington 1 Duke of Marlborough 1 Subutai 1 Voting for my own nominee (Marlborough). I was going to give a vote to Hannibal, but have been convinced by some of the extravagant praise to leave him off for the moment. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/396 "2010-10-11T16:14:56Z")
**Duke of Marlborough** - 2 **Subutai** - 2 **Scipio Africanus** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/397 "2010-10-11T16:27:41Z")
If Nelson was still here you could put your telescope to your blind eye and disobey orders! Ah well, I have the day off and was playing with my dogs earlier, so it was time well spent. 🙂 Also, Nelson was on my short list anyway. Too bad we didn’t talk about him very much, as he was a cool guy, but guess a very well-known quantity to the participants in the thread. It’s worth noting, by the way, that we are now officially down to the top ten. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/398 "2010-10-11T22:44:26Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > That Hannibal was able to weld this far more multi-national group into an army efficient enough to pull of three of the most startlingly complete victories against the more homogeneous and professional forces of the Romans and their allies was really a remarkable feat ( one of several ). It’s one of the reasons I rank him above Scipio. I’ve got to disagree. Hannibal faced Rome’s legions before the legion system was re-organised by Marius and Sulla. Further, the legions were often green. Plus, of course, Scipio had allies too. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/399 "2010-10-11T22:48:22Z")
Looks like get to repeat my votes: 2 - Hannibal 2 - Khalid 1 - Subutai These are not aspersions on any of them, but rather recognition that others are better. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/400 "2010-10-12T01:20:54Z")
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