# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/401 "2010-10-12T17:24:42Z")
**Georgy Zhukov** -2. Not a top 10 guy IMHO. **John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough** - 1. Like I said, I have hard time picking between the DoM and the DoW. **Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington** - 1. As above. Reserving the last one, as I’m waffling between Scipio and Khalid. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/402 "2010-10-12T23:29:46Z")
Top ten is far enough for these holdovers: Subutai – 2 Georgy Zhukov – 2 Finally his time to be targeted by me: Khalid ibn al-Walid – 1 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/403 "2010-10-13T01:19:03Z")
Georgy Zhukov is not a holdover! Gawd! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/404 "2010-10-13T12:50:24Z")
**Wellington - 2 Marlborough - 2 Scipio - 1** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/405 "2010-10-13T16:29:28Z")
The votes in our 24th round: **Subutai - 8** Duke of Wellington - 6 Khalid ibn al-Walid, Duke of Marlborough - 5 each Scipio Africanus, Georgy Zhukov - 4 each Hannibal - 2 (again) The boldfaced leader(s) above are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson Subutai The next round will conclude at noon EST on Fri. Oct. 15. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/406 "2010-10-13T16:33:07Z")
Scipio Africanus - 2 Duke of Wellington - 1 Duke of Marlborough - 1 Hannibal - 1 (Miracle worker or no, he ended his career with an “L”). ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/407 "2010-10-13T16:33:44Z")
**Duke of Marlborough** - 2 **Scipio Africanus** - 2 **Duke of Wellington** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/408 "2010-10-13T17:02:05Z")
Marlborough - 2 Khalid ibn al-Whalid -2 Scipio - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/409 "2010-10-13T17:03:07Z")
So, is anyone else pulling for Zhukov to actually win this thing? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? /crickets ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/410 "2010-10-13T17:15:37Z")
Yeah, I could go for that, but I doubt it’ll happen. Khalid ibn al-Walid - 2 Duke of Marlborough - 2 Hannibal - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/411 "2010-10-13T17:43:48Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > So, is anyone else pulling for Zhukov to actually win this thing? I’m afraid I’m going to start voting him pretty soon; I’m now voting everyone who isn’t in my top 5, which is 1 G. Khan 2. A. T. Great 3. J. Caesar 4-5 Zhukov and Khalid, in no particular order. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/412 "2010-10-13T18:40:34Z")
I don’t understand the low ranking of the Iron Duke. He was successful in India and Europe, and mastered both logistics and manoeuvre warfare (for ground troops). Beyond that he was a statesman. He influenced the whole of Europe. He was the epitome of a great military leader. I’d actually forgotten that Alexander was still in the game. 2 - Alexander - a flash in the pan. 1 - Khalid 2 - Hannibal. Oh yes, my top 3 would be Julius Caesar, Wellington, and Genghis. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/413 "2010-10-14T00:44:47Z")
Going with the crowd: Khalid ibn al-Walid – 2 Going against the grain: Georgy Zhukov – 2 Lowest-ranked (on my list, anyway) of the rest: Duke of Marlborough – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/414 "2010-10-15T12:17:17Z")
And I’m not sure I understand the high ranking of the Iron Duke. 🙂 India was good work, but didn’t _most_ European generals overrun Eastern armies in those days? And in Europe he was _outmaneuvered_ by Napoleon (admittedly, facing Nappy was playing the first team) in the preliminaries to Waterloo – as Keegan points out, Napoleon met his goal of attacking the converging allied forces in detail, and had inflicted a defeat on the Prussians and driven them away from the intended convergence. Wellington’s battlefield victory _retrieved_ the campaign from disaster. I think of him as a great leader, but we’re high in the stratosphere at this point. I always hear much more complimentary things about Marlborough, for example, although I admit to being weak on the man’s historical period. I’m also turning the heat up on Scipio. Frankly the record seems to indicate he would be _at least_ as devious and tricky as any of our remaining candidates, and he certainly faced first-rate opposition. But we’ve still got three sandal vandals on the list, and my early stab at Caesar (heh) was deflected. Although…the arguments people are making for the importance of enduring legacies could actually weigh _against_ Caesar. Overthrowing the Republic (however corrupt it was at the time) and instituting a tradition of civil war among strongmen for the emperor’s throne that would preoccupy Rome for much of the next 500 years is a legacy? (I note that my pet Zhukov is also vulnerable for contributing to the expansion of a malignant political system.) Edit: oops, the votes: **Wellington - 2 Scipio - 2 Marlborough - 1** ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/415 "2010-10-15T13:46:29Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > And I’m not sure I understand the high ranking of the Iron Duke. 🙂 > > India was good work, but didn’t _most_ European generals overrun Eastern armies in those days? And in Europe he was _outmaneuvered_ by Napoleon (admittedly, facing Nappy was playing the first team) in the preliminaries to Waterloo – as Keegan points out, Napoleon met his goal of attacking the converging allied forces in detail, and had inflicted a defeat on the Prussians and driven them away from the intended convergence. Wellington’s battlefield victory _retrieved_ the campaign from disaster. I think of him as a great leader, but we’re high in the stratosphere at this point. I always hear much more complimentary things about Marlborough, for example, although I admit to being weak on the man’s historical period. To me, the Duke gets props for the Penninsular Campaign, in which he adroitly organized more _types_ of combat than most generals - conjuction with Guerilla forces and tricky, undependable allies; use of strategic defences as strategic surprise (the Lines); as well as the more usual manuver and siege - all to defeat an enemy much stronger than himself and in many cases led by competent opposition. His innovations extend way past the battlefield itself and embrace new ways of finding logistical support for the troops - particularly charming is the story that, on entering France and in line with his policy of always paying for supplies from the locals (rather than simply pillaging, as was the French habit at the time), and finding that the locals would only accept French money, he “found” among his solders enough professional forgers to make all the ‘French’ currency he needed. 😉 Add to this his incredible Indian campaign and the fact that he did, in point of fact, decisively defeat Napoleon himself in the only battle they fought - and you get a strong contender. Though admittedly the last achievement is the most controversial, as it was famously a “near run thing”, he had been initially outmanuvered (“humbugged, by god!”) and arguably the defeat wasn’t his doing alone, but an honour shared with the Prussians … but it simply puts a cap on his other, already impressive achievements. As Nappy himself once said, luck is one of the foremost attributes of a great general … an in this case, luck combined with the ability to pull the situation out of the soup after being “humbugged”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/416 "2010-10-15T13:49:39Z")
Oh, and votes … Scipio - 2 Zhukov - 2 Khalid ibn al-Walid - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/417 "2010-10-15T14:17:41Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > And I’m not sure I understand the high ranking of the Iron Duke. 🙂 > > India was good work, but didn’t _most_ European generals overrun Eastern armies in those days? No, they didn’t. Not with keeping India anyway. > [@](#): > > And in Europe he was _outmaneuvered_ by Napoleon Not in Spain. > [@](#): > > (admittedly, facing Nappy was playing the first team) in the preliminaries to Waterloo – as Keegan points out, Napoleon met his goal of attacking the converging allied forces in detail, and had inflicted a defeat on the Prussians and driven them away from the intended convergence. Wellington’s battlefield victory _retrieved_ the campaign from disaster. Wellington would not have fought if the Prussians had not been coming. > [@](#): > > I think of him as a great leader, but we’re high in the stratosphere at this point. I always hear much more complimentary things about Marlborough, for example, although I admit to being weak on the man’s historical period. Marlborough faded, but Wellington went on to effectively run Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/418 "2010-10-15T16:10:38Z")
**Georgy Zhukov** - 2. **Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington** - 1. **John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough** - 1. **Scipio Africanus** - 1. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/419 "2010-10-15T16:31:21Z")
re: Wellington, what I said earlier about him not dominating the battlefield like Marlborough is certainly true. While his achievements in the Peninsular Campaign were pretty impressive, he was checked more than once and some of his victories were by the skin of his teeth. He’s still a great general, but he never had as crushingly as successful a victory as, for example, [Ramillies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ramillies). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/420 "2010-10-15T17:48:27Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > re: Wellington, what I said earlier about him not dominating the battlefield like Marlborough is certainly true. While his achievements in the Peninsular Campaign were pretty impressive, he was checked more than once and some of his victories were by the skin of his teeth. He’s still a great general, but he never had as crushingly as successful a victory as, for example, [Ramillies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ramillies). For comparison purposes, the Duke himself said that the Battle of Assaye was his greatest: > **[Battle of Assaye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Assaye)** > > The Battle of Assaye was a battle of the Second Anglo-Maratha War fought between the Maratha Empire and the British East India Company. It occurred on 23 September 1803 near Assaye in western India. An outnumbered Indian and British force, under the command of Major General Arthur Wellesley (who later became the Duke of Wellington), defeated the combined Maratha army of Daulatrao Scindia and the Bhonsle Raja of Berar. The battle was Wellesley's first great victory and the one he later described... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=22)