# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/421 "2010-10-15T17:48:44Z")
Sorry, **Tamerlane** - too late. The votes in our 25th round: **Scipio Africanus - 9 Duke of Marlborough - 9** Khalid ibn al-Walid - 8 Duke of Wellington - 5 Hannibal, Georgy Zhukov - 4 each Alexander the Great - 2 The boldfaced leader(s) above are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson Subutai Scipio Africanus Duke of Marlborough The next round will conclude at noon EST on Mon. Oct. 18. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/422 "2010-10-15T17:50:34Z")
Duke of Wellington - 2 Hannibal - 2 Georgy Zhukov - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/423 "2010-10-15T17:55:21Z")
Woah, getting tight. Zhukov - 2 Khalid ibn al-Walid - 2 Hannibal - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/424 "2010-10-15T18:37:53Z")
Khalid - 2 Hannibal - 2 Alexander - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/425 "2010-10-15T18:41:34Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Sorry, **Tamerlane** - too late. That’s okay - the only effect would have been to bounce Scipio and Marlborough with slightly more authority ;). **Georgy Zhukov** - 2. **Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington** - 2. Good, not the best. I’m now remorsefully thinking Marlborough was the more important general, though I’ll probably change my mind in an hour :D. **Khalid al-Walid** - 1. I’ll eat my own here, mainly for documentation reasons. The Arab conquests were of vastly greater significance than Hannibal’s failed wars. But the records of Khalid’s accomplishments are somewhat compromised and other commanders undeniably also played a prominent role. Whereas Hannibal’s impact was so traumatic we have multiple Roman sources confirming his ability. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/426 "2010-10-15T18:50:05Z")
Genghis Khan - 2 Hannibal - 2 Khalid ibn al-Walid - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/427 "2010-10-15T19:51:59Z")
Sticking with 'em until they leave: Khalid ibn al-Walid – 2 Georgy Zhukov – 2 Lowest-ranked (on my list, anyway) of the rest: Duke of Wellington – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/428 "2010-10-17T08:54:39Z")
Since it was mentioned upthread, those interested in horse archery should check out [this](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11557730) BBC report. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/429 "2010-10-17T15:10:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Since it was mentioned upthread, those interested in horse archery should check out [this](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11557730) BBC report. I hope they don’t get out of hand after the contest, and go on to build a tower of victim’s skulls outside of Brighton. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/430 "2010-10-17T16:19:53Z")
**Duke of Wellington** - 2 **Kalid al-Walid** - 2 **Julius Caesar** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/431 "2010-10-17T20:01:58Z")
Khalid -2 Alexander -2 Wellington -1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/432 "2010-10-18T14:07:57Z")
Interestingly, the die-hards who remain were world-conquerors or made serious runs at the title, with the exception of Wellington and, somewhat debatably, Zhukov. Although the Soviet Union scrupulously observed certain legal principles as it suited Stalin, its enormous ambition for territorial expansion and political hegemony almost qualify Zhukov serving Stalin as a conquering general in the style of Subutai serving Genghis Khan (and in much the same area of the world). Hannibal I am counting as a wannabe-conqueror because if he had ever done in Rome, Carthage would have been an empire and Hannibal might well have adventured into further expansion; all he did was fight. Wellington may well be the most civilized of those remaining, but this is not really a prize for the civil. At this stage we’re looking at almost mythical bogeymen recorded in national or racial memories as gods and monsters.\* Man, it’s getting tough. After much agonizing, I’m going to vote against Hannibal, whom I believe was one of my own nominees. An absolute master of the battlefield and a terrifying opponent; one of the very few who ever drove that unstoppable superorganism, Rome, into extremity; but ultimately, _the only loser remaining on the list_. Lastly, Khalid gets a ding solely because of the often-mentioned difficulty of credibly documenting his achievements. **Wellington - 2 Hannibal - 2 Khalid - 1** \*Some readers might buy Genghis Khan, Khalid, Alexander and the rest as near-mythological monsters used to scare children for generations, but might doubt Zhukov belongs in such nightmare company. I will respond thusly: I agree that his name is not well known to Americans, but I did not grow up being told to fear Khan or Caesar or even Khalid’s Arabs – it was always the threat of massed columns of Soviet armor pouring through the Fulda Gap, supported by rockets and fighter-bombers, that held my generation’s nightmares hostage. Those nightmares may not have had Zhukov’s name attached to them, but they bear his stamp more than anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/433 "2010-10-18T15:00:47Z")
I agree with the learned **Sailboat’s** reasoning and his selections, with the caveat that I think the fuzzy historical record regarding Khalid is the greater weakness than Hannibal’s eventual defeat. Accordingly: Wellington - 2 Khalid- 2 Hannibal- 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/434 "2010-10-18T18:07:11Z")
The votes in our 26th round: **Khalid ibn al-Walid - 15** Duke of Wellington - 12 Hannibal - 10 Georgy Zhukov - 7 Alexander the Great - 3 Genghis Khan - 2 Julius Caesar - 1 The boldfaced leader(s) above are now gone. That leaves the Best of the Best: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson Subutai Scipio Africanus Duke of Marlborough Khalid ibn al-Walid The next round will conclude at noon EST on Weds. Oct. 20. Same rules as before. Let me know when, if ever, you think we should change the current voting structure. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/435 "2010-10-18T18:11:11Z")
Wellington 2 Hannibal 2 Zhukov 1 On the one hand, people don’t HAVE to use all their votes, so you could keep the same structure right through to the end; I’d still say we should go to 3 votes with a max of 2 on one candidate starting with the final five (next round) and then to a single vote once we hit the final 3. ETA: having mourned Khalid’s apparent departure a few rounds ago, let me just say that I see nothing wrong with voting him out at this point - he really is in magnificent company. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/436 "2010-10-18T18:13:00Z")
Alexander - 2 Hannibal - 2 Zhukov - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/437 "2010-10-18T18:57:58Z")
Getting tougher and tougher… Genghis Khan - 2 Hannibal - 2 Duke of Wellington - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/438 "2010-10-18T18:59:54Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’d still say we should go to 3 votes with a max of 2 > on one candidate starting with the final five (next round) and then to a single vote once we hit the final 3. Concur. I probably would have just voted 2 against Wellington if I’d thought about it, as I rank Khalid substantially higher (not that it would have turned the tide in this case). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/439 "2010-10-18T19:13:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’d still say we should go to 3 votes with a max of 2 on one candidate starting with the final five (next round) and then to a single vote once we hit the final 3. I agree - we are down to the wire now, time to change the voting structure. My votes this round: Zhukov - 2 Hannibal - 2 Wellington - 1 I see a three-way Alex-Genghis-Caesar battle for supremacy comming … ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/440 "2010-10-18T21:03:29Z")
I was thinking of a modified “kill” option – each voter would have the choice of allocating five points per round in the established manner, or assigning three points to one man and none to anyone else. However, I have no objection to **Tom Scud** ’s proposal, as I think the main point is having to concentrate the votes more as the end of the game draws nigh. Under the current rules, I stick with my still-standing selections from last time: Duke of Wellington – 2 Georgy Zhukov – 2 I assign my final vote to the Carthaginian: Hannibal – 1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=23)