# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/441 "2010-10-18T21:29:38Z")
I also agree with **Tom Scud’s** proposed change to the final rounds of voting. My picks under the current system: Alexander - 2 votes. Wellington - 2 votes. Hannibal - 1 vote. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/442 "2010-10-19T18:30:13Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > and then to a single vote once we hit the final 3. Howabout 77 votes, but you can only cast them for a single candidate. Think how impressive the totals will look! 😉 **Georgy Zhukov** - 2 **Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington** - 2 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/443 "2010-10-19T18:42:36Z")
**Duke of Wellington** - 2 **Julius Caesar** - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/444 "2010-10-20T12:23:13Z")
**Duke of Wellington - 2** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/445 "2010-10-20T17:31:10Z")
The votes in our 27th round: **Duke of Wellington - 14** Hannibal - 10 Georgy Zhukov - 8 Alexander the Great - 4 Genghis Khan - 2 Julius Caesar - 2 Interestingly, these were all in exactly the same order (two even had the same totals!) as in the previous round. The boldfaced leader(s) above are now gone. That leaves our Top Five: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson Subutai Scipio Africanus Duke of Marlborough Khalid ibn al-Walid Duke of Wellington New Rules: As suggested by **Tom Scud** , you each now have three votes, with a maximum of two on any single candidate. We’ll go to a single vote each once we hit the Final Three. The next round will conclude at noon EST on Fri. Oct. 22. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/446 "2010-10-20T17:33:50Z")
Hannibal - 2 Georgy Zhukov - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/447 "2010-10-20T17:38:08Z")
I’ll do a “reverse **Tom Scud** ”: Georgy Zhukov – 2 Hannibal – 1 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/448 "2010-10-20T17:48:27Z")
**Caesar** - 2 **Zhukov** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/449 "2010-10-20T18:36:37Z")
Farewell, Iron Duke. You had a good run! Georgy Zhukov – 2 Hannibal – 1 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/450 "2010-10-20T20:08:29Z")
Alexander -2 votes Hannibal - 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/451 "2010-10-20T20:12:08Z")
It’ll be interesting to see if Hannibal manages to outlast Zhukov - I have a feeling that Zhukov’s support is softer than Hannibal’s among the voters. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/452 "2010-10-20T20:36:08Z")
As **lisiate** goes, so goes **Elendil’s Heir** : Alexander - 2 Hannibal - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/453 "2010-10-21T01:09:23Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I have a feeling that Zhukov’s support is softer than Hannibal’s among the voters. Maybe, but I’m none to sure you’re correct. He’s getting a bit more love than I would have expected going into this game. **Georgy Zhukov** - 2. Now my own biases are clear - I’d rather see Hannibal beat Zhukov head to head. I _could_ game the system some more and just not vote for Hannibal to try and preserve Zhukov’s “lead.” But that does seem a little punkish, as Hannibal really is next in line on my hit list. And it’s not as if this is a matter of national importance ;). Oh, well… **Hannibal** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/454 "2010-10-21T08:50:51Z")
Hannibal 2 Alexander 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/455 "2010-10-21T14:04:23Z")
The anti-Alexander votes intrigue me – I wonder if anyone cares to explain their reasoning? Is it because he took Daddy’s army out for a joyride? 😉 Considering we’re talking about life and death on a societal scale (ask Hannibal’ Carthaginians what was at stake) across the full sweep of human history, at this point in the elimination process we’re making very fine (if not entirely arbitrary) distinctions between giants. Although I have argued consistently for Zhukov’s presence on the list, I do feel there are arguments to be made against him. Chief among those would be the fact that he was not ultimately in control of grand strategy (a problem Hannibal shared) and perhaps that he was part of a very successful _system_ – that he _helped_ re-create after the effects of both Stalin’s purges and the 1941 collapse – but that he did not stand above that system like Alexander nor create it out of nothing like Ghengis Khan. Although this is dangerous in that it disadvantages _any_ modern commander, it could also be argued that Zhukov’s exercise of command from behind the front is less impressive than leading from the front lines in hand-to-hand melee…although it’s also true that personal courage and charisma will fall flat if your staff work and logistics fail you, so that argument could be made both ways. Ultimately I suppose it comes down to my feeling that Hannibal’s achievements were entirely the result of his own efforts, and Zhukov’s were critical contributions to an enormous system to which many other people also contributed. I also remain not entirely convinced Caesar belongs in the final three, which presents me with a conundrum: if I vote against Hannibal for reasons given last time, and weigh a tad more heavily against Zhukov, as described above, I have to vote 1 and 2 and am out of votes to make what will surely be only a protest vote against Iulius. Frankly, I’m having a terrible time deciding if Hannibal should trump Caesar. I think Hannibal could probably have done more with less than Caesar could, but ultimately Caesar’s judgments always bore fruit (except maybe taking Brutus under his wing) and Hannibal’s entire war did not. **Zhukov - 2 Hannibal -1** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/456 "2010-10-21T14:47:56Z")
**Hannibal** - 2. It’s time for the only loser on this list to, well, lose. I’m holding my last vote in reserve for the moment (punkish or no), but I would suggest that **Sailboat** is not wholly correct in denying that Zhukov “stood above” the Soviet system. He forged the shattered and demoralized Red Army into a force that could sponge and purge and blast from the surface of the Earth every trace of Hitler’s footsteps, every stain of his infected, corroding fingers, and teach the German homeland well that war is not all war and triumph. (Apologies to Churchill.) And he killed a _lot_ of Nazis doing it. 😃 That’s an accomplishment at least on a par with Alexander’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/457 "2010-10-21T14:58:01Z")
BTW, does this mean that Hannibal, Zhukov, Alexander, Caesar and Genghis Khan were all Cylons? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/458 "2010-10-21T15:31:37Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > sponge and purge and blast from the surface of the Earth every trace of Hitler’s footsteps, every stain of his infected, corroding fingers, and teach the German homeland well that war is not all war and triumph. (Apologies to Churchill.) And he killed a _lot_ of Nazis doing it. 😃 [One thing, and one thing only…](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il59S3HT6jI) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/459 "2010-10-21T16:14:24Z")
I want to keep Zhukov, at least for now, because he was (a) an extraordinarily talented general, and (b) is the only modern guy still left. As bloody as the 20th century was, there ought to be at least one military representative of it here. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/460 "2010-10-21T22:54:31Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > The anti-Alexander votes intrigue me – I wonder if anyone cares to explain their reasoning? He was a flash-in-the-pan compared with Caesar, Zhukov, and Genghis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=24)