# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/501 "2010-10-27T04:50:52Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Unless that isn’t the most effective defense available. Pompey left Rome to try and raise additional legions, muster resources, and more effectively counter Caesar. That’s very much a strategic retreat, a defense-in-depth type of thing. Was it appeasement for Stalin to scorch and evacuate towns in front of Hitler’s troops? Or should he have done as Hitler did, and ordered his troops to stand and fight where they were, regardless of how badly they were outnumbered or the gains to be made by fighting retreats? Stalin did just that. In fact, Zhukov tried in vain to get him to withdraw from Kiev, but Stalin wouldn’t budge. Millions of Russian soldiers were surrounded and captured. But that’s different than Pompey completely leaving Italy. You think the Soviets would have won if they had retreated east of the Urals and let all their important cities be taken? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/502 "2010-10-27T14:28:33Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Stalin did just that. In fact, Zhukov tried in vain to get him to withdraw from Kiev, but Stalin wouldn’t budge. Millions of Russian soldiers were surrounded and captured. > > But that’s different than Pompey completely leaving Italy. You think the Soviets would have won if they had retreated east of the Urals and let all their important cities be taken? Actually, I think they’d have had a good shot, assuming they maintained their scorched-earth strategy, perhaps leaving behind partisans to harrass the German forces. The German supply line would have been badly over-extended, unprepared to face a Russian winter, and the troops would of necessity have been pretty thinly spread. I don’t think this would have been a _good_ way to win - the cost would have been horrific - but it probably would have worked. Especially since the Germans would have needed to commit even _more_ troops to occupy the expanded territory they controlled, which would have softened the Western front. Of course, it’s probably a mistake to analogize too closely between a Roman civil war and WW2’s Eastern front - but this does illustrate the point, I think, that even dramatic withdrawals can be legitimate tools for advancing one’s war aims. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/503 "2010-10-27T14:37:43Z")
I’ve long felt that the Great Khan would probably be #1. But as the thread goes on, I’ve been reassessing my own criteria, and I’m coming around to Alexander. Alexander maybe didn’t leave as much political legacy as Caesar and Genghis, but this isn’t a “Greatest Politician” thread. He did overextend himself, but I’d argue Caesar did too – it was his own side stabbing him for “going too far,” whereas Alexander’s men simply turned back when he went too far in India. And at least Alexander secured his base before setting out; no Senate treachery for him. While I respect the accomplishments of the Great Khan, I don’t think he can boast the variety of military actions that Caesar and Alexander both did. Both of them understood the value of naval forces and integrated them into their strategy; both of them fought with combined arms, not just cavalry; both of them conducted unusually imaginative sieges (Alesia and Tyre). Genghis Khan’s system worked well, and I know he took cities, but (perhaps because the flexible horse hordes worked so well) he didn’t have to demonstrate the wide range of different types of engagement the other two did. And Alexander came from a backwater and felled a gigantic empire, the largest of his day. Whereas Caesar _started_ in a position of power and respect in the largest empire of his day. Alexander used hard-hitting infantry but also dazzling cavalry derring-do; he made opposed river crossings in the face of superior forces; he used patient siege work (and giant siege engines) to consolidate his conquests, and rapid long-range thrusts to throw his enemies off-balance. He also gets points for being the only one of the three to oppose and defeat a vastly superior navy without significant naval resources of his own; his campaign to defeat the Persian navy “from the landward side” is justly famous. Really any one of these three gods of war would eat most of the rest of the list for breakfast; it pains me to vote against any of them. But in the interest of East/West parity, and in recognition of Genghis’ amazing story, I’m going to vote against Caesar by a hair. As I listed them above, I feel his accomplishments roughly parallel Alexander’s, but he started with more advantages and slightly less impressive opposition (he overthrew Rome but used the other half of it to do so; Alexander overthrew Persia from the equivalent of West Virginia.) **Julius Caesar** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/504 "2010-10-27T17:22:57Z")
“Gods of War.” I like that. The votes in our 29th round: **Julius Caesar - 4** Alexander the Great - 3 Genghis Khan - 1 The boldfaced leader above is now gone, leaving: Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson Subutai Scipio Africanus Duke of Marlborough Khalid ibn al-Walid Duke of Wellington Hannibal Georgy Zhukov Julius Caesar Same rules as before. Everyone gets one vote in each round. The next round will conclude at noon EST on Fri. Oct. 29. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/505 "2010-10-27T17:24:32Z")
**Robert E Lee** ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/506 "2010-10-27T17:31:54Z")
**Alexander the Great** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/507 "2010-10-27T17:32:36Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > **Robert E Lee** Err … **MOID**? Lee got knocked out some time back. **Alexander the Great**. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/508 "2010-10-27T18:05:44Z")
I know. I just had so much fun voting him off the first time I wanted to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/509 "2010-10-27T18:37:11Z")
Alexander. Sorry, you wine-sodden would-be-god, you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/510 "2010-10-27T18:40:07Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I know. I just had so much fun voting him off the first time I wanted to do it again. It _was_ fun, wasn’t it? Oh, well. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/511 "2010-10-27T18:55:09Z")
Genghis Khan. But I really wanted to see ol’ Julius as the Last God of War Left Standing. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/512 "2010-10-27T19:27:57Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > **Robert E Lee** Sorry, that’s a Lost Cause. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/513 "2010-10-27T19:37:51Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Alexander overthrew Persia from the equivalent of West Virginia.) If West Virginia had first conquered all the mid-Atlantic states ( i.e. Greece ), was up against a tottering empire ( Persia was in a weakened condition by that point ) and had the finest army then in existence ( Philip’s army was a superb engine ) ;). Not to downplay Alexander’s achievements too much, but you have to be wary of overplaying them as well. It’s perhaps a little unfair, but if we had thrown the two sandal-wearers against Genghis, I think Alexander would have been toast. Not because he couldn’t deal with nomad horse-archers - he handled the Scythians well enough and really Genghis didn’t have any revolutionary tech advantage over those folks. But Alexander was super-aggressive and a bit of an egotist. It’s easy seeing him getting separated and cut to pieces trying to outmaneuver an outmaneuverable enemy. I think the more level-headed Julius would have faired better. Genghis Khan was Alexander and Philip of Macedon all rolled up into one. His empire was better thought out, better established, more lasting, more secure and he had a peaceful succession ( including a rough equanimity among his three surviving sons, how rare is that ). His opponents were even more formidable and not in full decline like Alexander’s. So… **Alexander the Great** ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/514 "2010-10-27T20:20:25Z")
Another vote against Alexander the Great ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/515 "2010-10-27T21:44:27Z")
Staying with my last few rounds I’m also voting against Alexander. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/516 "2010-10-29T11:24:36Z")
**khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/517 "2010-10-29T18:15:21Z")
The votes in our 30th and final round: **Alexander the Great - 6** Genghis Khan - 2 Robert E. Lee - 1 😉 The boldfaced leader above is now gone, leaving: Genghis Khan as Da Winnah! Congrats to everyone’s favorite stinky barbarian overlord. Reminds of a cartoon in _The New Yorker_ from back during the Watergate Scandal. Two peasants are kowtowing in the mud in the midst of their burning village, bodies piled high around them, while Genghis Khan rides past, scowling, surrounded by his troops. One peasant is saying to the other, “It’s not the man I respect, it’s the office.” Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding Yamamoto Isoroku Sir Isaac Brock Moshe Dayan Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter Phil Sheridan Dwight D. Eisenhower Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang Henry V John Paul Jones Vo Nguyen Giap Attila the Hun Togo Heihachiro Bernard Montgomery Erich von Manstein George S. Patton Philip II of Macedon Gaius Marius Akbar the Great Arthur Currie Yi-Sun Shin George Washington Oda Nobunaga Erwin Rommel Belisarius U.S. Grant Timur-e-Lang Stonewall Jackson Frederick the Great Napoleon Bonaparte Themistocles Gustavus Adolphus William T. Sherman Lord Nelson Subutai Scipio Africanus Duke of Marlborough Khalid ibn al-Walid Duke of Wellington Hannibal Georgy Zhukov Julius Caesar Alexander the Great Thank you, everyone, for playing. Hope you had as much fun as I did! ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/518 "2010-10-29T18:17:54Z")
The Great Khan should have the final word: [QUOTE=Genghis Khan] The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/519 "2010-10-29T18:31:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > The Great Khan should have the final word: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Genghis Khan > The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters. … aaand to be ranked highest among the Gods of War, eight hundred years after your death, in an Internet game. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/520 "2010-10-29T19:11:46Z")
All hail the sweaty, stinky, fermented milk-drinkers! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=27)