# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/61 "2010-08-20T18:10:08Z")
Two for the rebel, traitor and slaver Robert E. Lee. Two for Pompey Magnus - though I hasten to add that, unlike Lee, I’ve nothing at all against the man personally. Other than the whole Sulla thing. Proscriptions aren’t cool. And, eh, one for Clausewitz - I’m convniced he deserves to get voted off the Island. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/62 "2010-08-20T18:37:26Z")
1 - Josef Tito. More politician than general. 2 - Titokowaru. Cannibal. 'nuff said. 2 - Pompey Magnus. Not really that great as a general. Yes he beat the pirates; but when faced with a real challenge, he caved. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/63 "2010-08-21T01:44:10Z")
Titokowaru – 2 points Pompey Magnus – 2 points Gabriel Dumont – 1 point ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/64 "2010-08-21T03:00:30Z")
Wow, already time. Looks like I got Cortez, so options are left. Robert E. Lee - 2pt. I feel the third round is long enough. Anyway, it’s important that he goes out before Sherman, in my mind, since there isn’t a single way in which he’s better. Curtis LeMay - 1pt. Still nothing stellar about him. Joseph Tito - 1pt. He seems like a better choice than Charles De Gualle, and the same criticism applies. (You’re through for now, Charlie! But I’m coming for you soon!) Charles Upham - 1pt. Nice to see he’s hanging in, even if I think he should be gone. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![boilercake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@boilercake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boilercake)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/65 "2010-08-21T03:11:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > 2 for the fucking arsonist, General William Tecumseh Sherman May-He-Rot-in-Hell. > > 2 for Grant the Butcher > > 1 for Sherridan, though his great-great-great-(I can’t be arsed to count generations that far into the future)-grandson will go on to be a pretty fair-to-middlin commander of Babylon 5. For a yankee. I concur. 2 for Sherman 2 for Grant 1 for Sherridan ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/66 "2010-08-21T16:45:54Z")
That’s “Sheridan” with one “r,” BTW. Carl von Clausewitz - an influential thinker and writer but not a military leader, as such - 2 Zachary Taylor - just doesn’t deserve to be in such stellar company - 2 Charles de Gaulle - did much more as a politician than as a military leader - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/67 "2010-08-21T16:54:21Z")
Robert E. Lee - slaveholder, oathbreaker, traitor, loser - 2 Stonewall Jackson - 2 Clausewitz - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/68 "2010-08-21T23:01:44Z")
Interesting how this is shaping up - fighting the Civil War by proxy all over again :p. On the one hand looking more closely at it, there are quite a few Americans on the list ( said the American ) and losing a few wouldn’t hurt. One the other hand for the reasons I stated earlier my own biases would lead me to vote for someone like O’Kane before any of those guys. He just is a rather lesser figure historically. At a threat of drawing down ire on my head I think I’d vote the CW guys off ( from first to last ) in the order of Sheridan\>Grant\>Lee\>Sherman\>Jackson. But a few others would have to go first. Actually it’s too bad we didn’t get any Amerindian leaders on the list - folks like [Little Turtle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Turtle) or [Lautaro](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautaro_(toqui)) are certainly more than compeititive with the likes of Dumont or Titokowaru IMHO. But as noted there are a whole slew of leaders that could have made it. I blame **Elendil’s Heir** for not giving us 15 choices each ;). Anyway I’ll partially suspend my unpopular campaign against the minor tactical leaders and re-order my priorities. **Clausewitz** - 2. Just not at all important as a field commander. **Zachary Taylor** - 2. If we have to bump an American general of this general era, I’d guess I’d take Taylor marginally before Sheridan. **Charles Upham** - 1. For reasons already stated. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/69 "2010-08-22T23:06:28Z")
I’ll stick to my votes from last week: Clausewitz - 2 votes Pompey Magnus - 2 votes Zachary Taylor - 2 votes. I agree with **Tamerlane** that the list is very Americo-centric and it’s a shame that many diverse figures didn’t make the cut. As the person who put forward Titokowaru I’d ask those who are for voting him out whether cannibalism really has any bearing on the issue at hand. Unlike many others on the list Titokowaru led an army inferior in numbers and equipment against the greatest power of the time and beat them three times - read [Titokowaru’s War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titokowaru%27s_War). Yes the numbers are small but to my mind that shouldn’t matter. Compared to many of the administrators on the list I believe that he should stay around for a while longer. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/70 "2010-08-23T10:50:46Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’ll stick to my votes from last week: > > Clausewitz - 2 votes > Pompey Magnus - 2 votes > Zachary Taylor - 2 votes. hey why does Lisiate get 6 votes? **Robert E. Lee** 2 : getting a headache from the rebel yell \*\*Pompey Magnus \*\*2: mostly based on the HBO serie, he was afraid to face Caesar even with more troops , and when forced to do battle in Greece(with tactical and numerical advantage) got his ass kicked \*\*Pyrrhus \*\*:1 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/71 "2010-08-23T11:25:00Z")
Pompey Magnus: 2 votes. Robert E. Lee: 2 votes. Clausewitz: 1 vote. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/72 "2010-08-23T13:46:03Z")
**Clausewitz: 2 Tito: 2 Kesselring: 1** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/73 "2010-08-23T13:48:45Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > > [@lisiate](#): > > > > I’ll stick to my votes from last week: > > > > Clausewitz - 2 votes > > Pompey Magnus - 2 votes > > Zachary Taylor - 2 votes. > > hey why does Lisiate get 6 votes? > … Good catch. Assuming **lisiate** ranked his generals by order of priority and not alphabetically, I’ll just knock one vote off Taylor unless **lisiate** returns to the thread before noon today to correct it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/74 "2010-08-23T16:13:00Z")
Done and done. Thanks, everybody. The votes in our third round: **Pompey Magnus - 12 Carl von Clausewitz - 11 Robert E. Lee - 10** Ulysses S. Grant, William T. Sherman, Zachary Taylor, Josip Broz Tito, Titokowaru - 4 each Stonewall Jackson, Phil Sheridan, Charles Upham - 2 each Charles de Gaulle, Gabriel Dumont, Albert Kesselring, Curtis LeMay, Pyrrhus - 1 each The top three are gone. The next round will conclude at noon EST on Weds. Aug. 25. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/75 "2010-08-23T16:23:33Z")
Here’s our list of surviving nominees: Akbar the Great: Conquered much of India Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Attila the Hun: Scourge of God, and Rome. Belisarius: Justinian’s hammer Napoleon Bonaparte: Conquered most of Europe Sir Isaac Brock: Saved Canada against overwhelming odds Arthur Currie: Vimy Ridge; only sane WW1 leader? Moshe Dayan: Eye-patched Israeli commander Charles de Gaulle: Led Free French forces Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter: Dutch admiral, naval star Hugh Dowding: Won Battle of Britain Gabriel Dumont: Metis guerrilla warfare strategist Dwight D. Eisenhower: Defeated Nazis in Western Europe Flavius Aetius: Scourge of Attila Frederick the Great: Prussian king and battlefield genius Gaius Marius: Most important military reforms ever? Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Vo Nguyen Giap: Won Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam Ulysses S. Grant: Won final victory for Union Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Henry V: Warrior-king; won at Agincourt Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson: Embodiment of maneuver and offense John Paul Jones: Great American, Russian naval commander Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Paul von Hindenburg: German field marshal Albert Kesselring: Defended Italy from Allies Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests. Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang: Great Chinese tactician Curtis LeMay: Reorganized Strategic Air Command Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck: Evaded the British in Africa Erich von Manstein: His plan conquered France Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war John S. McCain Sr.: American admiral in Pacific Mehmet the Conqueror: Took Constantinople Marc Mitscher: Master of operational carrier warfare Bernard Montgomery: British commander at El Alamein Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Oda Nobunaga: First great unifier of Japan Richard H. O’Kane: Top U.S. submarine captain, WW2 George Patton: Armored warfare advocate Phillip II of Macedon: Alexander’s father, set the stage Pyrrhus: King of Epirus; opposed Rome Erwin Rommel: Germany’s Desert Fox Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal Philip “Little Phil” Sheridan: Grant’s troubleshooter; Indian fighter extraordinaire William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Sun Tzu: General; influential Chinese military theorist Zachary Taylor: American general; Mexican War hero Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Timur-e-Lang: The scourge of Western Asia Josip Broz Tito: Kicked Germans out of Yugoslavia Titokowaru: Beat the British twice Togo Heihachiro: Japanese naval victor against Russians Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao): Chinese emperor, general Charles Upham: Modern hero in ancient mould Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban: Great French military engineer George Washington: Determined general; won American independence Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Orde Wingate: Unorthodox leader in Africa, Asia Yamamoto Isoroku: WW2 Japanese naval leader Yi-Sun Shin: Noteworthy Korean admiral Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/76 "2010-08-23T16:42:24Z")
**Titokowaru** : 2. I have a similar bias as Tamerlane, as I think that if a leader is going to be renowned for his tactical achievements, those achievements have to be extremely impressive (on the level of Hannibal). Titokowaru seems like a cunning guerrilla leader, but I don’t think he achieved anything that couldn’t have been thwarted by a larger force commitment by the British. **Josip Broz Tito** : 2 **Gabriel Dumont** : 1 ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/77 "2010-08-23T16:48:59Z")
to speed this along, i’m not going to vote 2’s anymore. de gaulle aetius lemay grant taylor ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/78 "2010-08-23T17:23:21Z")
Ooooh, I can’t believe Marse Robert is gone! [QUOTE=A staff officer describing Lee at Chancellorsville] “The fierce soldiers with their faces blackened with the smoke of battle, the wounded crawling with feeble limbs from the fury of the devouring flames, all seemed possessed with a common impulse. One long, unbroken cheer, in which the feeble cry of those who lay helpless on the earth blended with the strong voices of those who still fought, rose high above the roar of battle, and hailed the presence of the victorious chief. He sat in the full realization of all that soldiers dream of—triumph; and as I looked upon him in the complete fruition of the success which his genius, courage, and confidence in his army had won, I thought that it must have been from such a scene that men in ancient days rose to the dignity of gods.” [/QUOTE] Unforeseen side effect of pushback against the Sherman/Grant hatred, I guess. I have a hard time believing that Lee, for all his faults, is out, and Tito, Dumont, Dayan, Kesselring and the like soldier onward. Lee may well have been a traitor; but he was daring and resourceful as an underdog. IMHO his faults were perhaps too much commitment to offense for his troop strength to bear, and, first and foremost, a fixation on Virginia that limited his strategic thinking when it came to the Western theater. Ah well. Note to the Sherman/Grant haters: do you _really_ think Sherman’s daring departure from a firm supply base and adventure deep into enemy territory, and Grant’s seizing on every moment of weakness in the West and relentlessly grinding down his tricky foe in the East (and winning) make them lesser military figures than a couple of bush guerillas, a communist strongman, and some armchair theorist(s)? These men led large armies for years against highly-regarded opposition, and their triumph (though galling to you personally) was complete. No one is asking if Genghis Khan helped little old ladies across the street, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/79 "2010-08-23T18:07:35Z")
Well said, **Sailboat**. Very well said indeed. I never did get around to voting against Lee, loathe him as I do for being (in Ken Burns’s memorable phrase, which got him booted out of the Sons of Confederate Veterans) “responsible for more loyal U.S. troops’ deaths than Hitler and Tojo combined,” because I agree with you that he was a lot better as a military commander than many who remain. My votes this round: Albert Kesselring - I don’t like Nazis, and he wasn’t their best field commander - 2 And as before: Zachary Taylor - just doesn’t deserve to be in such stellar company - 2 Charles de Gaulle - did much more as a politician than as a military leader - 1 ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/80 "2010-08-23T18:24:05Z")
**Tito: 2 McCain: 2** (He seems to have been no more than a minor WW2 admiral?) **Taylor: 1** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=5)