# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/101 "2010-08-30T07:16:22Z")
Marc Mitscher - 2 Sherman - 2 Paul von Hindenburg - 1 ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/102 "2010-08-30T09:45:29Z")
Gabriel Dumont - 2 Charles Upham - 2 Charles de Gaulle - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/103 "2010-08-30T10:31:27Z")
**Yamamoto Isoroku** , 2 points : won a series of victories against unprepared and ill-equipped forces, then got thrashed again and again when he faced actual warriors. Then he got capped like a punk. **Richard H. O’Kane** , 2 points : he could steer his boat, that’s for sure. But the prize for “bestest leadership ever” doesn’t go to Napoleon’s top artillery guy or Hannibal’s toughest mahout, does it ? **Pyhrrus** , 1 point : deservedly or not, he gave his name to “victories” at too great a cost. That’s not exactly glowing praise. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/104 "2010-08-30T15:13:44Z")
Gabriel Dumont - 2 Charles Upham - 2 Charles de Gaulle - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/105 "2010-08-30T16:19:12Z")
The votes in our sixth round: **Gabriel Dumont - 10 Charles Upham - 9** Charles de Gaulle - 5 Paul von Hindenburg, Marc Mitscher - 3 each Flavius Aetius, Richard H. O’Kane, William T. Sherman, Yamamoto Isoroku - 2 each Pyrrhus - 1 The top two are now gone. That leaves: Akbar the Great: Conquered much of India Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Attila the Hun: Scourge of God, and Rome. Belisarius: Justinian’s hammer Napoleon Bonaparte: Conquered most of Europe Sir Isaac Brock: Saved Canada against overwhelming odds Arthur Currie: Vimy Ridge; only sane WW1 leader? Moshe Dayan: Eye-patched Israeli commander Charles de Gaulle: Led Free French forces Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter: Dutch admiral, naval star Hugh Dowding: Won Battle of Britain Dwight D. Eisenhower: Defeated Nazis in Western Europe Flavius Aetius: Scourge of Attila Frederick the Great: Prussian king and battlefield genius Gaius Marius: Most important military reforms ever? Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Vo Nguyen Giap: Won Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam Ulysses S. Grant: Won final victory for Union Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Henry V: Warrior-king; won at Agincourt Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson: Embodiment of maneuver and offense John Paul Jones: Great American, Russian naval commander Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Paul von Hindenburg: German field marshal Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests. Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang: Great Chinese tactician Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck: Evaded the British in Africa Erich von Manstein: His plan conquered France Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Mehmet the Conqueror: Took Constantinople Marc Mitscher: Master of operational carrier warfare Bernard Montgomery: British commander at El Alamein Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Oda Nobunaga: First great unifier of Japan Richard H. O’Kane: Top U.S. submarine captain, WW2 George Patton: Armored warfare advocate Phillip II of Macedon: Alexander’s father, set the stage Pyrrhus: King of Epirus; opposed Rome Erwin Rommel: Germany’s Desert Fox Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal Philip “Little Phil” Sheridan: Grant’s troubleshooter; Indian fighter extraordinaire William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Timur-e-Lang: The scourge of Western Asia Togo Heihachiro: Japanese naval victor against Russians Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao): Chinese emperor, general Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban: Great French military engineer George Washington: Determined general; won American independence Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Orde Wingate: Unorthodox leader in Africa, Asia Yamamoto Isoroku: WW2 Japanese naval leader Yi-Sun Shin: Noteworthy Korean admiral Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham The next round will conclude at noon EST on Weds. Sept. 1. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/106 "2010-08-30T18:23:41Z")
**Richard H. O’Kane** - 2 votes. Sorry, but as has been amply discussed here, tactical chops alone just don’t cut it for this thread. If someone starts a “Greatest Skippers” thread or something, I’ll gladly fight for the man to make the finals - but this isn’t that thread. **Flavius Aetius** - 2 votes, thanks to **Tamerlane’s** excellent post. A figure whose deeds are this poorly recorded cannot reasonably be considered the greater military leader in history. **Mehmet the Conqueror** - one vote. What’s this guy still doing here? As with so many other things, I blame Robert E. Lee (kidding, **Oak**!). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/107 "2010-08-30T19:08:52Z")
Same as before : Isoroku Yamamoto - 2 Richard H. O’Kane - 2 Pyhrrus - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/108 "2010-08-30T19:44:57Z")
Charles de Gaulle - 2 Richard H. O’Kane - 2 Pyhrrus - 1 All for the reasons earlier stated. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/109 "2010-08-30T22:41:47Z")
Richard H. O’Kane - 2 votes Paul von Hindenburg - 2 votes Charles de Gaulle - 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/110 "2010-08-30T23:19:05Z")
**Richard H. O’Kane** - 2. I’m happy to jump on this bandwagon for reasons I’ve stated earlier. A very good commander, but in the end his great accomplishments were as a skipper of a single vessel. **Paul von Hindenburg** - 2. Just not that brilliant, all-in-all. **Marc Mitscher** - 1. A solid turn later as a fleet admiral against a badly weakened foe. But not a tremendous field commander. A word of defense for **Pyrrhus** : \*It is said that at one of their meetings in the gymnasium Scipio and Hannibal had a conversation on the subject of generalship, in the presence of a number of bystanders, and that Scipio asked Hannibal whom he considered the greatest general, to which the latter replied, “Alexander of Macedonia.” To this Scipio assented since he also yielded the first place to Alexander. Then he asked Hannibal whom he placed next, and he replied, “Pyrrhus of Epirus,” because he considered boldness the first qualification of a general; “for it would not be possible,” he said, “to find two kings more enterprising than these.” \* From Appian’s History of Rome: _The Syrian Wars_. Pyrrhus was universally considered very, very dangerous by his contemporaries, despite only being the ( sometime ) ruler of a very minor principality. When he decided to accept the Tarentine’s offer and headed off to southern Italy his assorted neighbors and rivals ( Antigonus Gonatas, Ptolemy Keraunos, Antiochus I, Ptolemy II ) were vastly relieved and supplied him with money, mercenaries and guarantees for his venture to get him out of Greece as rapidly as possible. His famous “Pyrrhic victories” at Heracleia and Ausculum have to be understood in light of his circumstances. Although the recorded numbers changes and as with all ancient casualty records should be considered unreliable as to the specifics, the sources all agree that he inflicted considerably heavier casualties on the Romans in both battles than he suffered himself. By most standards and against most enemies those would have been considered flat-out victories. The reason they were pyrrhic for Pyrrhus, was that he had few native resources and was dependent on mercenaries like most Hellenistic kings at that time. The unique Roman military system by contrast allowed Rome to spit out fresh, more-or-less quality armies at an astonishing rate. Pyrrhus, like Hannibal, couldn’t afford a war of attrition and any significant casualties. Unlike Rome, who could keep getting whipped in the field but wear down a hand-to-mouth adventurer like Pyrrhus in time. As battles like Cynoscephalae, Pydna and Magnesia show, the Roman legion was just intrinsically superior to the late-model Greco-Macedonian phalanx under most conditions - i.e. anywhere other than a straight ahead face-to-face slugging match on a level plain. One has to give Pyrrhus credit for beating Rome not once, but twice and fighting them to a bloody stalemate in a third engagement at Beneventum ( a de facto defeat for Pyrrhus of course ). Like Hannibal he penetrated to within a few miles of Rome itself ( though like Hannibal, it didn’t do him much good ). No other Greek general would ever do so well against the Romans. Besides that there are his string of victories against assorted Greek and Carthaginian opponents - including overrunning most of Macedonia _after_ retreating from Italy. His chief failing was that he was a crappy politician. High-handed and dictatorial, he repeatedly turned his own against himself, over and over again. That and he truly was an adventurer, being drawn into one siren-song of conquest after another, until some old lady finally beaned him on the head with a ceramic tile. Nonetheless, by the relatively high standards of his very violent time, he was considered a badass. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/111 "2010-08-31T00:47:08Z")
**Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck** - 2 **Richard H. O’Kane** - 2 **Charles de Gaulle** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/112 "2010-08-31T00:50:31Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > A word of defense for **Pyrrhus** : > [SNIP] > Nonetheless, by the relatively high standards of his very violent time, he was considered a badass. Granted - but by the standards of our time, what you describe sounds like a fine tactical thinker but a piss-poor logistician and strategist. (An accusation that I’d be just as happy, BTW, to see leveled at Hannibal.) I didn’t vote for Pyrrhus - but I certainly will if he makes it to the next round. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/113 "2010-08-31T01:07:28Z")
Sticking with: Flavius Aetius – 2 Replacing the two eliminated last round: Marc Mitscher – 2 Paul von Hindenburg – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/114 "2010-08-31T03:41:18Z")
I just don’t understand the hate for Hindenburg. The Schlieffen Plan called for the 8th to hold on for 6 weeks behind trenches around Konigsburg, the Russians attacked Prussia before they were fully mobilized with the complete 1st and 2nd, their best two armies. Within less than a week von Prittwitz wanted to withdraw behind the Vistula and abandon Konigsburg altogether. So the German High Command sends in the A team. Hindenburg was retired, sitting in his armchair, smoking a pipe when he got a call from OKH and in less than a two days, with a chief of staff he had never met took _control_ in the east and turned that dandy punk von Prittwitz’s retreat into one of the greatest beatdowns in WWI. Before The Battle of Tannenberg was over H-L crushed _both_ armies and the general of the Russian 2nd, Alexander Samsonov, committed suicide. When Hindenburg wins everybody knows it. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/115 "2010-08-31T04:05:28Z")
**Charles de Gaulle** - 2, the man doesn’t belong on a list of any great tactical commanders no matter how long. Political acumen and tact with allies are important for a military leader but what use is a stool with two legs? \*\*Vo Nguyen Giap \*\*-2, my knowledge of the man isn’t extensive but it’s always been my feeling that campaigns against guerrillas in the jungle are not as much won as lost. While I’ll admit transporting as much artillery as he was able move against Dien Bien Phu was a logistical triumph he doesn’t seem tactically clever. Tet was a political success but an abject military failure, and while it can be argued that it succeeded in its objectives sending waves of suicide squads isn’t a masterstroke of military planning. **Orde Wingate** - 1 while he helped establish the Zionist state he sought, his methods ultimately undermined the security of that state to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/116 "2010-08-31T04:06:48Z")
**MOIDALIZE** , I would love to hear who you think did more with less than Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/117 "2010-08-31T04:14:45Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Granted - but by the standards of our time, what you describe sounds like a fine tactical thinker but a piss-poor logistician and strategist. Logistician, hard to say. But yeah, he was certainly lacking as a grand strategist. He comes off a lot like a Charles XII ( of Sweden ), a formidable tactician that constantly let himself get side-tracked by sideshows instead of focusing on a single problem. It’s a fair criticism. But I still think some others should get bounced first :). > [@Sitnam](#): > > I just don’t understand the hate for Hindenburg. > So the German High Command sends in the A team. > > Before The Battle of Tannenberg was over H-L crushed _both_ armies and the general of the Russian 2nd, Alexander Samsonov, committed suicide. When Hindenburg wins everybody knows it. No hate per se, but my understanding is that [Ludendorff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff) and [Hoffman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Hoffmann) were actually more instrumental in winning that campaign. Hindenburg was the public face, Ludendorff more the man behind the scenes. ETA: Again, not saying Hindenburg was in any way a _bad_ general. He just doesn’t seem to be among the greatest. Whatever his contribution to Tannenburg/Masurian Lakes, the fact that others are perceived as sharing or possibly being owed more credit dilutes the impact those ( very impressive ) victories have for his career. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/118 "2010-08-31T04:36:12Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > No hate per se, but my understanding is that [Ludendorff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff) and [Hoffman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Hoffmann) were actually more instrumental in winning that campaign. Hindenburg was the public face, Ludendorff more the man behind the scenes. > > ETA: Again, not saying Hindenburg was in any way a _bad_ general. He just doesn’t seem to be among the greatest. Whatever his contribution to Tannenburg/Masurian Lakes, the fact that others are perceived as sharing or possibly being owed more credit dilutes the impact those ( very impressive ) victories have for his career. I’ll grant you the ‘von’ in his name was high on the list of the reasons they called him, still, even you’ll agree that he had a successful working relationship with his subordinates which isn’t easy in the ego driven testosterone pool of war. If he wasn’t the brains behind the 8th’s early success perhaps its wisdom on his part for trusting those more ‘in the loop’ so to speak. I suspect a number of generals here aren’t facing the ax cause few know anything about them. Hell, I’ve never heard of Yi-Sun Shin until now. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/119 "2010-08-31T05:07:42Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’ll grant you the ‘von’ in his name was high on the list of the reasons they called him, still, even you’ll agree that he had a successful working relationship with his subordinates which isn’t easy in the ego driven testosterone pool of war. If he wasn’t the brains behind the 8th’s early success perhaps its wisdom on his part for trusting those more ‘in the loop’ so to speak. Oh, that’s certainly true - he seems to have worked very well in tandem with Ludendorff and they both jumped on Hoffman’s plan, which shows quick thinking. Of course it appears Prittwitz had accepted Hoffman’s idea as well, but he got dismissed before he had a chance to make the play himself. > [@](#): > > I suspect a number of generals here aren’t facing the ax cause few know anything about them. Hell, I’ve never heard of Yi-Sun Shin until now. Quite possibly. I’ve heard about Yi-Sun Shin via the one and only survey book I’ve read on Korean history and a couple of brief mentions in Berry’s biography of Hideyoshi, but even in those the coverage is light ( if laudatory ). But I’m fairly sure he’s an obscure cat for non-Koreans. I’m actually surprised by a number of individuals that showed up on this list ( and a bit surprised at a number that didn’t ). But that’s okay - makes it interesting. Meanwhile I know I expected when I first read this list to be voting for some others like Moshe Dayan long before this, but I keep getting side-tracked. I could still vote for others before Hindenburg for example, but at a certain point it becomes a bit of a toss-up and figures from different periods and with different jobs become difficult to compare. And if I’m the _only_ person voting for someone I’m sure like others I’ll sometimes switch up my votes just for strategic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/120 "2010-08-31T05:20:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Oh, that’s certainly true - he seems to have worked very well in tandem with Ludendorff and they both jumped on Hoffman’s plan, which shows quick thinking. Of course it appears Prittwitz had accepted Hoffman’s idea as well, but he got dismissed before he had a chance to make the play himself. Not according to _The Guns of August_, I’m not sure how unfairly biased it is towards Prittwitz but he comes out looking really bad. He can say whatever he wants after the fact but it’s absolutely clear H-L being sent to the front was a vote of no confidence in Prittwitz’s command, had he gone with Hoffman’s plan or otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=7)