# Greatest Military Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010 "2010-08-12T02:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![candide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@candide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candide)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/161 "2010-09-07T07:50:51Z")
Also, **Sailboat** , thanks for the word of the day: grognard. I’m going to use it as often as I can ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/162 "2010-09-07T13:59:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Proposed rule for the round after that: To move this along, I don’t see the need to rush. It’s an internet game - it can finish in 2014 and it wouldn’t make much difference to me. > [@](#): > > I was thinking of giving each player three “killer” votes, any one of which will kill a leader. Each player would also have a single “save” vote, to keep a leader in the running who would otherwise have died from a vote cast in that round. Hate the idea. Too many folks ( me included ) have some idiosyncratic views that shouldn’t be catered to. Even worse if someone gets slightly miffed you could easily start getting retaliatory “kills.” As an example I’ll mention the minor Civil War contretemps earlier in this thread. A majority vote tamps that down and prevents weird partisanship from dominating the thread ( like say somebody who finds a minor trifle like a little skull-stacking so objectionable they feel they have to ignore ability in favor of moral condemnation ). We’re simply not responsible enough as a group to be given such godlike power. Maybe when we’ve all evolved into formless creatures of pure thought :). So a big no from me. If it must be done, at the very least **Sailboat** ’s modification makes sense. > [@candide](#): > > Isaac Brock lived in the age of Ney and von Blucher and of Toussaint Louveture and Andrew Jackson – great soldiers – men who aren’t on the list. You tell me Isaac Brock deserves to be categorized a great leader above those men? In my mind, I don’t think so. Neither do I. The problem is tons of generals were left off this list who I’d consider better ( and for that matter better than Ney, Blucher or L’Ouverture - d’Avout, Napoleon’s “Iron Marshall”, could have kicked Ney’s ass if you ask me 😉 ). For example of Napoleon’s “seven great captains”, two are missing from this list - Turenne and Eugene of Savoy. An while I was glad to see Vauban on this list, other French marshals from his general period like Conde, Luxemburg, Vendome, Villars and, slightly later, Maurice de Saxe, could have all been more than competitive with folks like Brock if you ask me. But I think you kind of have to look past that and evaluate based on the competition on the list that we have. It doesn’t reflect a list _I_ would have made, but that’s what makes it interesting ( and what do I know, anyway - I’m obviously horribly biased in favor of the French 😛 ). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/163 "2010-09-07T14:05:50Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > **Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang - 2 > Moshe Dayan - 1 > Henry V - 2** > > Dayan’s combat experience seems to have been in the 1948 war for independence and in 1956. But he was also Defense Minster during the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War. His [Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_dayan), at least, does not seem to cover him with laurels for those incidents: I think Dayan deserves credit, more than anyone else perhaps, for the establishment of the IDF as a modern military force. It was his peacetime leadership - organizational, doctrinal, inspirational - that earns him a place on the list. That said, as actual military leaders, I’d put Itzhak Rabin and Ariel Sharon ahead of him in terms of capability and achievement. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/164 "2010-09-07T14:08:56Z")
I also do not like the “kill vote” idea. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/165 "2010-09-07T14:15:18Z")
Anyhow… **Moshe Dayan** -2. I’ve been meaning to get around to him for precisely the reason **Sailboat** notes. A very good Chief of Staff and an apparently solid small unit commander, but I think you could find better Israeli generals. **Philip Sheridan** - 2. The least of the remaining CW figures. A solid commander, but count up his defeats vs. victories in the Overland Campaign and he starts looking less impressive. **Hugh Dowding** - 1. Did well with what he had and built an impressive defensive system. But in this regard he could be considered an aerial equivalent to Vauban. ETA: Oh and re: proposed rules - if it must be passed, I also would prefer **Sternvogel** ’s modification - 1:1 + **Sailboat** ’s argumentation addition. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/166 "2010-09-07T14:34:44Z")
Just a quick check, but is Eisenhower actually eligible? IIRC he never actually commanded troops in battle and only held staff and peacekeeping roles Regardless: 2 - Eisenhower. See above. 2 - Vo Nguyen Giap. Militarily, the Vietnamese forces were a disaster. America’s defeat is for another thread. 1 - William Tecumseh Sherman And count me against the killer vote idea. If you want to move the game along, give us more votes overall, but still limit us to a maximum per candidate. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/167 "2010-09-07T22:13:36Z")
I’m with **Tamerlane** and **Quartz** about the proposed rule change, there’s no rush here. My votes for the round: Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) - 2 votes Sir Isaac Brock - 2 votes Philip SHeridan - 1 vote. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/168 "2010-09-08T00:55:30Z")
**Hugh Dowding** - 2 **Isaac Brock** - 1 **Michiel de Ruyter** - 1 **Yamamoto** - 1 I oppose the suggested “kill” rule ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/169 "2010-09-08T04:22:19Z")
None of these three IMHO are on the same level as some of the best of the best who still remain: Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) - 2 Hugh Dowding - 2 Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter - 1 I’ll abstain from voting on the proposed rule change for now, in case a tiebreaker is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/170 "2010-09-08T06:03:56Z")
I was the one who nominated Sir Isaac Brock. I wasn’t (and am not) expecting or hoping for him to come out as #1, but he’s a worthwhile entry. Why? Off the top of my head: -Everything Sailboat said. -the rules of the game appear to want to cancel out size considerations —being in a minor theatre doesn’t detract from his accomplishments. -Brock fought an effectively “perfect” battle (by not fighting it) —on enemy territory, with inferior forces and against fortifications, he managed to come out with 100% losses on the other side (mostly just POW’s, of course) and 0% (or nearly 0%) on his own side. Not bad, right? -Brock was seriously brave —though too brave for his own good, we could penalize him for that. -…and Brock hated his commission, but did an inspired job at it anyway! For all these reasons, I don’t think it’s time to get rid of Sir Isaac Brock just yet. I will vote tomorrow (sorry for missing so many rounds…) but that should hopefully answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/171 "2010-09-08T12:23:04Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > -Brock was seriously brave —though too brave for his own good, we could penalize him for that. The Native American war leader Tecumseh, from a culture that valued bravery and military accomplishment, famously said “This is a _man_” after meeting Brock. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/172 "2010-09-08T14:29:20Z")
Okay, voting. Moshe Dayan - 1pts. Tsao Tsao - 2pts. Isoroku Yamamoto - 2pts. All other people’s choices that looked well justified to me. I’ll have to do more reading before next round. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/173 "2010-09-08T17:04:28Z")
The votes in our tenth round: **Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) - 8 Hugh Dowding - 7** Moshe Dayan, Yamamoto Isoroku - 4 each Sir Isaac Brock, Phil Sheridan - 3 Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Henry V, Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang, Vo Nguyen Giap - 2 each William T. Sherman - 1 The top two are now gone. That leaves: Akbar the Great: Conquered much of India Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world Attila the Hun: Scourge of God, and Rome. Belisarius: Justinian’s hammer Napoleon Bonaparte: Conquered most of Europe Sir Isaac Brock: Saved Canada against overwhelming odds Arthur Currie: Vimy Ridge; only sane WW1 leader? Moshe Dayan: Eye-patched Israeli commander Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter: Dutch admiral, naval star Dwight D. Eisenhower: Defeated Nazis in Western Europe Frederick the Great: Prussian king and battlefield genius Gaius Marius: Most important military reforms ever? Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine Vo Nguyen Giap: Won Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam Ulysses S. Grant: Won final victory for Union Gustavus Adolphus: Made Sweden a great power Hannibal: Greatest tactical genius? Henry V: Warrior-king; won at Agincourt Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson: Embodiment of maneuver and offense John Paul Jones: Great American, Russian naval commander Julius Caesar: Rome’s most brilliant commander Khalid ibn al-Walid: Architect of the Arab conquests. Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang: Great Chinese tactician Erich von Manstein: His plan conquered France Duke of Marlborough: Master of early modern war Bernard Montgomery: British commander at El Alamein Lord Nelson: Royal Navy admiral; Trafalgar victor Oda Nobunaga: First great unifier of Japan George Patton: Armored warfare advocate Phillip II of Macedon: Alexander’s father, set the stage Erwin Rommel: Germany’s Desert Fox Scipio Africanus: Stopped Carthage and Hannibal Philip “Little Phil” Sheridan: Grant’s troubleshooter; Indian fighter extraordinaire William Tecumseh Sherman: Logistics, maneuver as strategic warfare Subutai: Genghis Khan’s top general Themistocles: Victor of Marathon, Artemisium, Salamis Timur-e-Lang: The scourge of Western Asia Togo Heihachiro: Japanese naval victor against Russians George Washington: Determined general; won American independence Duke of Wellington: Successes in India; thrashed Napoleon Yamamoto Isoroku: WW2 Japanese naval leader Yi-Sun Shin: Noteworthy Korean admiral Georgy Zhukov: Led from Moscow to Berlin Eliminated so far: George B. McClellan Charles the Bold Hernan Cortez Douglas MacArthur Pompey Magnus Carl von Clausewitz Robert E. Lee Josip Broz Tito Zachary Taylor John S. McCain Sr. Titokowaru Albert Kesselring Curtis Le May Sun Tzu Gabriel Dumont Charles Upham Richard H. O’Kane Charles de Gaulle Paul von Hindenburg Marc Mitscher Flavius Aetius Mehmet the Conqueror Pyrrhus Orde Wingate Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao) Hugh Dowding As I counted 'em, there were no outright “yes” votes for the proposed kill/save rule, but five “no” and four “yes, with qualifications” votes. So the rule will not be imposed, at least for now. Thanks for your feedback. I’ll give it some more thought. The next round will conclude at noon EST on Fri. Sept. 10. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/174 "2010-09-09T02:06:17Z")
Hanging on: Yamamoto Isoroku – 2 points First-timers for me: Philip Sheridan – 2 points Vo Nguyen Giap – 1 point ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/175 "2010-09-09T03:56:24Z")
Sir Isaac Brock - 2 Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter - 2 Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang - 1 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/176 "2010-09-09T18:47:58Z")
**Isaac Brock** - 2 **Michiel de Ruyter** - 2 **Yamamoto** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/177 "2010-09-09T19:24:00Z")
I can reprise my votes from last round, since I didn’t carry the day with any of them: **Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang - 2 Moshe Dayan - 1 Henry V - 2** I’d like to say one thing on Yamamoto Isoroku’s behalf. It’s well-known he was against the war with the United States due to his own sharply realistic estimate of America’s potential to mobilize productive capacity. In fact, I’d say his realism and ability to judge naval affairs were very solid – he formed this opinion while in the United States, essentially doing his own personal intelligence preparation, and his official estimate just before the war started (that he would ‘run wild for the first six months to a year’) came almost exactly true – if we take the failure to find the US carriers at Pearl Harbor as shifting that estimate toward its shorter side, Midway ended his “wild run” almost _exactly_ six months later. Japanese planning of the era was overly complex, and Yamamoto Isoroku did not escape that fault. And I do not know how directly responsible he was for the questionable decision to use an inflexible older battleship admiral (Nagumo) for the fast carrier strike force. But aside from those issues, he was not only a highly successful admiral who employed cutting-edge methods at Pearl Harbor, but also (unlike some of our candidates) a very clear-eyed predictor of what was to be a vast, complex, rapidly-changing war. It was his tragic fate to be ordered against his own best judgment to take Japan forward into that doom he so accurately foresaw. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/178 "2010-09-09T19:44:53Z")
Pearl Harbor was a gamble, and we shouldn’t penalize leaders too much for ambitious gambles, but hindsight suggests it was a bad move. However, I can’t condemn him for that. I can condemn him for Midway. He gambled on a decisive battle and he lost. Even if it was a necessary gamble, given Japan’s dwindling advantage against an American war effort that was ramping up, the result was a failure. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/179 "2010-09-09T21:43:31Z")
I’m going to keep my votes the same 2 - Eisenhower. 2 - Vo Nguyen Giap. 1 - William Tecumseh Sherman. Can we please have a ruling on Eisenhower’s eligibility? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010/180 "2010-09-10T00:29:38Z")
Eisenhower is eligible. He’s made it this many rounds; I’m not gonna kick him out now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-military-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/550010.md?page=10)