# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/1 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")
Setup thread here: [Greatest National Leader elimination game (setup thread) - The Game Room - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=563001). The three-word (or longer) descriptions have been edited as necessary for accuracy, clarity and/or consistency. In the first elimination round, each player has five votes to cast as he or she sees fit, but cannot cast more than two for a single nominee. The first round will run through Fri. May 21 at noon EST. No vote trading, please - vote on the merits of each nominee. You need not have participated in the setup thread to vote, nor need you vote in the first round to vote in subsequent rounds. Our list of nominees: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Cory Aquino - Restored Philippines democracy Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Attila the Hun - Humble, fearsome conqueror Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire David Ben-Gurion - First Israeli PM Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Simon Bolivar - Latin America liberator Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Charlemagne - Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Oliver Cromwell - English republican leader Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Charles de Gaulle - Led modern France David - Conquered the Philistines Jefferson Davis - Confederate wartime president Deng Xiaoping - Remade modern China Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Gandhi - Independence through peace Genghis Khan - Mongol Empire founder Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Henry V of England - Legendary warrior-king Adolf Hitler - German Nazi leader Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Nelson Mandela - Overcame imprisonment, triumphed Mao Zedong - Chinese revolutionary chief Tomas Masaryk - Czechoslovakia’s founding president Meiji Emperor - Created modern Japan Menes - Egypt-uniting pharaoh Montezuma - Later Aztec leader Moses - Founded monotheistic religions Muhammad - United all Arabia Napoleon I - French expansionist emperor Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Pitt the Elder - Noted British PM Robert the Bruce - First Scottish king Anwar El Sadat - Egyptian warrior, peacemaker Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Antonio López de Santa Anna - Mexican nationalist leader Haile Selassie - Ethiopia’s longtime emperor Shaka Zulu - United Zulu tribes Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Solon - Founded Athenian democracy Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire Victoria - Noted British sovereign Pancho Villa - Mexican revolutionary general Lech Walesa - Polish leader, inspiration George Washington - First U.S. president Duke of Wellington - Statesman, general, gentleman Wilhelm II - WWI German kaiser Fidel Castro, whom I’d overlooked, is now disqualified; he’s neither dead (as far as we know) nor out of office for at least ten years, as required in the setup OP. I’ve left in the other somewhat-iffy nominees to permit a more vigorous debate. Have at it! ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/2 "2010-05-20T04:32:27Z")
My votes: Queen Victoria: 2 Points Alexander The Great: 1 Point Mao Tse-Tung: 1 Point Meiji Emperor: 1 Point Adolf Hitler: _Nil Point_ since he’s going to get heaps of votes anyway. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/3 "2010-05-20T07:35:31Z")
1 - Napoleon - comprehensively thrashed by Wellington. 1 - Alexander - his empire split on his death. 2 - Wilhelm II - WW1, nuff said. 1 - Adolf Hitler. Might as well give him one point to kick things off. And just a nitpick: Robert the Bruce wasn’t the first Scottish King. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/4 "2010-05-20T12:32:38Z")
Jefferson Davis 2 Wilhelm II 2 Wellington 1 Davis was leader of a miserable cause, and lost. Wilhelm II led his country into a war that killed millions of people and that it lost, and lost his dynasty in the process. My vote on Wellington is in search of an explanation - could someone justify why he’s on this list? It’s not a list of greatest generals or greatest statesmen. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/5 "2010-05-20T12:46:10Z")
Jefferson Davis - 2 Adolf Hitler - 2 Wilhelm II - 1 All led their countries into disastrous wars, which left the country in ruins. At least Kaiser Bill ended his war with an armistice, not total defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/6 "2010-05-20T13:41:28Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > …My vote on Wellington is in search of an explanation - could someone justify why he’s on this list? It’s not a list of greatest generals or greatest statesmen. The Duke served as British prime minister in 1828-30 and 1834, which qualifies him under the terms of the OP as a national leader. Just learned from Wiki, he lived long enough to have a daguerrrotype taken in 1844: [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Duke\_of\_Wellington\_Photo.jpg](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Duke_of_Wellington_Photo.jpg) I agree with **Giles** as to my votes: Adolf Hitler, a genocidal monster who sparked a world war and nearly destroyed his country - 2 Jefferson Davis, who did his level best to split up the country to which he had sworn an oath as a Cabinet member, senator and military officer - 2 Kaiser Wilhelm II, an utter failure forced to abdicate - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/7 "2010-05-20T13:51:13Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Duke served as British prime minister in 1828-30 and 1834, which qualifies him under the terms of the OP as a national leader. Just learned from Wiki, he lived long enough to have a daguerrrotype taken in 1844: [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Duke\_of\_Wellington\_Photo.jpg](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Duke_of_Wellington_Photo.jpg) Fair enough. I’ll let him pass until we’ve cleared out some of the monsters and incompetents, but I’m not inclined to give him full credit for his exploits as a general given that they happened years before he became PM. ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/8 "2010-05-20T15:57:08Z")
Hitler-2 Jefferson Davis-2 Moses-1 (Fictional) ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/9 "2010-05-20T20:40:06Z")
Pancho Villa – 2 points (not truly a leader of a nation in my opinion, although I realize there’s reasonable debate on the matter) Jefferson Davis – 2 points (his country only lasted four years) Duke of Wellington – 1 point (greatest accomplishments came before he was Prime Minister) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/10 "2010-05-20T21:43:02Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > My vote on Wellington is in search of an explanation - could someone justify why he’s on this list? It’s not a list of greatest generals or greatest statesmen Umm.. really? Look down the list and tell me how many were not military leaders or statesmen or both. Why don’t you have a look at his [biography](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Wellesley,_1st_Duke_of_Wellington)? In addition to being the greatest general and leader of his age, he was later Prime Minister twice, and influenced the whole of Europe. And he has a style of boots named after him. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/11 "2010-05-20T23:26:01Z")
Well, yes, but a list of “Greatest Generals” would look very different (and include, say, Belisarius). Since Wellington was actually PM for a while I’ll give him a pass until we get rid of the obvious losers (how does Montezuma not have a vote yet?); I’m not sure how to deal with leaders’ early careers yet (affects ones ranking of, say, Julius Caesar if you say that you’re not going to count anything that comes before his being proclaimed leader). ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/12 "2010-05-21T02:00:38Z")
I’ll give Montezuma a point, just for you. 😛 Adolf Hitler - 2pts. Ignoring the whole genocide thing (not that we should), how could he be a great national leader when he was responsible for the literal destruction of the nation he commanded? Jefferson Davis - 1pt. Same objection, minus the genocide. Montezuma - 1pt. Ditto. Louis XIV - 1pt. By the time he died, the writing was on the wall for the monarchy. One could forgive him the failing, but I really think of France’s success as riding on the Peace of Westphalia, which really wasn’t his doing (he was ten at the time.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/13 "2010-05-21T04:10:13Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Louis XIV - 1pt. By the time he died, the writing was on the wall for the monarchy. One could forgive him the failing, but I really think of France’s success as riding on the Peace of Westphalia, which really wasn’t his doing (he was ten at the time.) He permanently expanded France’s borders, presided over THE continental superpower of its time and established his grandson on the throne of Spain, where his descendants are still enthroned to this day. Also there’s Versailles. Nah, Louis was pretty successful as such things go. He was no Jefferson Davis. Hitler - 2pts. Pretty epic fail. Jefferson Davis - 1 pt. Slightly less epic fail. Montezuma II - 1 pt. Ditto. There are indications Aztec expansion of tribute-paying areas continued during his reign and he may be getting slighted a bit by bad Spanish press. But ultimately he’s a bit less sympathetic to me than Wilhelm II. Wellington - 1 pt. Great general, but not that terribly impressive as a politician relative to the compeitition. For one thing his “reign” as PM was pretty brief. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/14 "2010-05-21T04:22:13Z")
King David - 2 - May as well nominate King Arthur Moses - 2 - or Merlin Jefferson Davis - 1 - No explanation necessary ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/15 "2010-05-22T01:46:45Z")
Attila the Hun-2 votes Adolf Hitler-2 votes Mao Zedong-1 vote Also EH could you please add two or three last minute additions or is it too late? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/16 "2010-05-22T01:54:04Z")
Jefferson Davis - 2 David - 1 Moses - 1 Wilhelm II - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/17 "2010-05-22T02:47:16Z")
**Jefferson Davis 13 Adolf Hitler 11 Wilhelm II 6** Duke of Wellington 3 Moses 3 Alexander the Great 2 David 2 Montezuma 2 Victoria 2 Mao, the Meiji Emperor, Napoleon, Louis XIV - 1 each The top three are gone; the others remain in the running. As before, each player has five votes to cast as he or she sees fit, but cannot cast more than two for a single nominee. The second round will end at noon EST on Mon. May 24. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > …Also EH could you please add two or three last minute additions or is it too late? ☹ Sorry. The nominations were open for a week. Earlier voters might’ve voted for whoever you now have in mind. You and **amarone** also voted past the noon deadline today. Although I haven’t counted your votes this round, you’re welcome to vote in the next round. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/18 "2010-05-22T04:57:28Z")
Attila the Hun-2 votes Mao Zedong-2 votes Tamerlane-1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/19 "2010-05-22T06:16:29Z")
Menes - 1 Montezuma - 2 Santa Anna - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/20 "2010-05-22T13:17:11Z")
2 - Robert the Bruce - Achieved little beyond Scotland. 2 - Montezuma - Only known because he was defeated. 1 - Selassie - not in the same class as the rest. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=2)