# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/181 "2010-06-28T13:26:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > …(I touted John Brown unsuccessfully in the Greatest American game; his martyrdom may also have been essential to that cause.) I’m not so sure of that. I think the war would’ve come sooner or later, no matter what. Brown’s abortive raid was a _cause celebre_ across the country, but there were several other martyrs to abolitionism. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/182 "2010-06-28T15:36:35Z")
Getting in just under the deadline with two new (for me, anyway) nominations: Saladin – 5 Julius Caesar – 5 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/183 "2010-06-28T16:19:14Z")
The votes: **Saladin - 23** Abraham Lincoln - 12 Alexander the Great - 9 Julius Caesar - 8 Muhammad - 8 George Washington - 7 Hammurabi - 6 Rameses II - 5 Qin Shi Huang - 2 Given the sharp falloff in votes from Saladin to Lincoln, only the sultan gets the heave-ho this turn. That also has the benefit of leaving us with a solid Top Ten: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Hammurabi - First written laws Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Muhammad - United all Arabia Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Weds. June 30 at noon EST. \*\*New rules: \*\*Now that we’re down to just ten nominees, we’ll go to five votes per player, with no more than three cast against any single leader. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/184 "2010-06-28T17:08:05Z")
Clearly any Great Leader competition without Kim Il Sung in the top 10 is completely illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/185 "2010-06-28T17:10:00Z")
Changing tack slightly to vote for two second-bests: Julius Caesar 3 (for reasons mentioned before, plus he is not the Greatest Roman Leader Ever and it’s time to trim down to the final 8) Abraham Lincoln 2 (leaving Washington as the Greatest American Leader Ever). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/186 "2010-06-28T19:12:36Z")
Hammurabi - 3 Abraham Lincoln - 1 Alexander the Great - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/187 "2010-06-28T21:59:43Z")
2 - Washington 3 - Alexander ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/188 "2010-06-29T00:21:49Z")
Hanging around: Julius Caesar – 3 Pushed on the stage kicking and screaming: Hammurabi – 2 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/189 "2010-06-29T01:03:14Z")
Hammurabi - 3 Rameses II - 2 **Gorsnak** , is that you at the 0:22 mark, seventh from the back?: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpRpYtbtSg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpRpYtbtSg) > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > …leaving Washington as the Greatest American Leader Ever… I’ll drink to that! ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Credible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a8b319/32.png) [@Justin\_Credible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Credible)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/190 "2010-06-29T06:20:40Z")
Gaius Julius Caesar - 2 Abraham Lincoln - 3 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/191 "2010-06-30T05:40:43Z")
> [@Justin\_Credible](#): > > Gaius Julius Caesar - 2 > Abraham Lincoln - 3 What he said… **Gaius Julius Caesar** - 2 **Abraham Lincoln** - 3 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/192 "2010-06-30T19:07:59Z")
The votes: **Gaius Julius Caesar - 10** Abraham Lincoln - 9 Hammurabi - 8 Alexander the Great - 4 George Washington - 2 Rameses II - 2 So ol’ Julius gets the boot, leaving: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Hammurabi - First written laws Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Muhammad - United all Arabia Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Fri. July 2 at noon EST. Same rules as in the previous round: Five votes per player, with no more than three cast against any single leader. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/193 "2010-06-30T19:11:42Z")
Lincoln - 3 Alexander - 2 I actually have a fairly clear final 4 in mind, now, and a pretty good idea how #5 - 9 are ranked. Hadn’t, really, before this. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/194 "2010-06-30T20:57:02Z")
Abraham Lincoln - 2 Hammurabi - 3 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/195 "2010-06-30T21:30:19Z")
I really don’t get the love for Washington. He was the leader of a small army and led a minor rebellion. Sure it had major consequences down the line but these were neither intended nor foreseen. He was a slaveholder. He wasn’t that good a general - his victory at Valley Forge owing more to von Steuben. He did little with respect to the Constitution, serving as little more than a figurehead. So I vote 4 Washington 1 Alexander ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/196 "2010-07-01T02:06:42Z")
As I posted earlier, Washington established the Cabinet system and recruited the best men for the jobs (an all-star Cabinet incl. Jefferson, Hamilton, Knox, etc.), adroitly upheld American neutrality during the Anglo-French wars, appointed the entire Federal judiciary, gained approval for the construction of six excellent frigates as the foundation of the U.S. Navy, backed Hamilton’s reform plans which set the infant republic on sound economic and fiscal footing, put down the Whiskey Rebellion and then pardoned its leaders, saw to the establishment of the Federal City that would later bear his name, etc. He toured every state and knit the country together by his example of character and leadership. Washington got a _lot_ done in eight years as President. He was not just a figurehead. The Constitution would probably never even have been ratified had he not presided at the 1787 Convention, and later backed it in the face of strong opposition. Valley Forge wasn’t so much a victory (there was no battle) as an ordeal which the Continental Army successfully endured. As to his generalship: [Was Washington a good general? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=532183) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/197 "2010-07-01T02:20:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > …So I vote > > 4 Washington > 1 Alexander Under current rules, you may cast no more than three votes against any individual leader (and I’m not just pointing that out because I love Washington!) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Credible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a8b319/32.png) [@Justin\_Credible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Credible)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/198 "2010-07-01T03:29:08Z")
Abraham Lincoln - 3 Muhammad - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/199 "2010-07-01T17:05:21Z")
**Lincoln** - 3 **Rameses II** - 2 - I was all set to give Alexander the nod. He was kind of a douche after all - a violent, drunken, narcissistic megalomaniac with poor impulse control. And those were his good qualities :D! But really Alexander has been the exemplar of the world-conqueror in the Western world ( including the Near East ) since his death. Everyone from Julius Caesar to folks like Matthias Corvinus and the Ottoman sultan Mehemed II have taken inspiration from him or even claimed him as a personal totem. And unlike Nebuchadnezzar II we really _can_ lay the ~300 year ‘Hellenistic Age’ at Alexander’s feet - he profoundly reshaped the world he lived in, even if only “temporarily.” And along the way gave us such oddities as [Menander I Soter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I), the Greek, Buddhist king of northwestern India. Ramses II was a very impressive dude and the greatest scion of one of the most ancient and enduring cultures in history. But he didn’t have quite the same impact on the popular imagination as Alexander, nor the same immediate impact on the classical world around him. 'course I’m one of those who thinks Genghis Khan was kicked out way to early. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/200 "2010-07-02T01:15:20Z")
With Julius gone, Mr. “Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth” becomes my prime target. Hammurabi – 3 Let’s stay in the Near/Middle East for my newest nominee. Muhammad – 2 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=11)