# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/21 "2010-05-22T15:04:16Z")
Montezuma- 2 Moses- 2 Pancho Villa -1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/22 "2010-05-22T15:39:25Z")
Montezuma - 2 Villa - 2 David - 1 (probably existed, but as leader of a fairly small kingdom) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/23 "2010-05-22T17:17:36Z")
Montezuma **II** - 2 pts. C’mon, there _were_ two of 'em, nobody tries to slight Wilhelm II’s dynastic order 😉 - [Montezuma I](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moctezuma_I). Same reason as above. Wellington - 1 pt. Same as above. Pancho Villa - 1 pt. In the end didn’t really accomplish much in of himself and was never really much of a national leader. Moses - 1 pt. I’ll toss in the likeliest fictional character on this round. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/24 "2010-05-22T18:31:09Z")
Genghis Khan Mao Zedong Montezuma Robert the Bruce Victoria I’d like to put in a good word for Attila the Hun, one of the greatest conquerors in history, who gets a bad press in part because he was a heathen fighting Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/25 "2010-05-23T00:58:40Z")
Pancho Villa – 2 points (you forgot to mention my vote for him in your summary, **EH** , but it didn’t affect the outcome of the round. Glad he’s getting traction now) Duke of Wellington – 2 points (see my earlier post for reason) Oliver Cromwell – 1 point (the monarchy wasn’t eliminated for long, and it’s still around, albeit with much-diminished powers) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/26 "2010-05-23T02:00:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Genghis Khan > Mao Zedong > Montezuma > Robert the Bruce > Victoria > > I’d like to put in a good word for Attila the Hun, one of the greatest conquerors in history, who gets a bad press in part because he was a heathen fighting Christians. What good did he do? He just slaughtered and destroyed. Unlike Genghis Khan he even failed to create an international network of civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/27 "2010-05-23T04:01:54Z")
2 Deng Xiaoping - An important reformer, but acted criminally in ordering or permitting the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989. 2 Mao Zedong - One of the greatest mass-murderers of history, when you consider the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. 1 Pancho Villa - Not really a national leader, all in all. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/28 "2010-05-23T05:51:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What good did [Attila the Hun] do? He just slaughtered and destroyed. [Creative destruction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction) of the Roman Empire which had become corrupt. 🆒 Attila’s empire was larger than the Roman empire and might have achieved some permanence were it not for his premature death. “Great” is a confusing ambiguous term (which OP asks us to define as we choose); Attila was a very remarkable warrior/leader who certainly seems “greater” than many on the list. I doubt if we can get reliable estimates for “How many deaths did [so-and-so] cause”, but I think there are several on the list who would outscore Attila by that measure. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/29 "2010-05-24T03:01:56Z")
Robert the Bruce - 2 David - 2 Moses - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/30 "2010-05-24T04:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Creative destruction of the Roman Empire which had become corrupt. Attila’s empire was larger than the Roman empire and might have achieved some permanence were it not for his premature death. Attila took a bad situation and made it worse. You only have a legitimate claim at creative destruction if you’re planning on creating something after you are done destroying. There’s no evidence that Attila had any such plans. He didn’t even make any plans on holding his own tribe together much less building a new society in Europe. It’s not like he was any great role model personally either. His uncle Rugila built up the tribe. Attila and his brother Bleda took power by killing him. Then Attila killed Bleda and his other rivals. Having killed anyone who could credibly threaten him for leadership there was nobody around to take over when he died (from a stroke while he was raping a young captive) so the tribe fell apart. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/31 "2010-05-24T16:43:28Z")
The votes: **Montezuma 10 Pancho Villa 7 Mao Zedong 5 Robert the Bruce 5** Moses 4 King David 3 Duke of Wellington 3 Attila the Hun, Deng Zaoping, Santa Anna - 2 each Oliver Cromwell, Genghis Khan, Haile Selassie, Menes, Tamerlane, Victoria - 1 each The top four are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Cory Aquino - Restored Philippines democracy Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Attila the Hun - Humble, fearsome conqueror Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire David Ben-Gurion - First Israeli PM Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Simon Bolivar - Latin America liberator Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Charlemagne - Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Oliver Cromwell - English republican leader Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Charles de Gaulle - Led modern France David - Conquered the Philistines Deng Xiaoping - Remade modern China Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Gandhi - Independence through peace Genghis Khan - Mongol Empire founder Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Henry V of England - Legendary warrior-king Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Nelson Mandela - Overcame imprisonment, triumphed Tomas Masaryk - Czechoslovakia’s founding president Meiji Emperor - Created modern Japan Menes - Egypt-uniting pharaoh Moses - Founded monotheistic religions Muhammad - United all Arabia Napoleon I - French expansionist emperor Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Pitt the Elder - Noted British PM Anwar El Sadat - Egyptian warrior, peacemaker Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Antonio López de Santa Anna - Mexican nationalist leader Haile Selassie - Ethiopia’s longtime emperor Shaka Zulu - United Zulu tribes Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Solon - Founded Athenian democracy Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire Victoria - Noted British sovereign Lech Walesa - Polish leader, inspiration George Washington - First U.S. president Duke of Wellington - Statesman, general, gentleman The current round of voting will end on Weds. May 26 at noon EST. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/32 "2010-05-24T17:12:06Z")
David - 2 Moses - 2 Attila the Hun - 1 ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/33 "2010-05-24T17:31:52Z")
Moses - 2 David - 2 Umar - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/34 "2010-05-25T02:06:06Z")
Duke of Wellington --2 Oliver Cromwell – 2 Making his debut on my list: Attila the Hun – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/35 "2010-05-25T04:12:25Z")
Attila the Hun, leader of rapacious hordes who built little that lasted - 2 Genghis Khan, ditto - 2 Haile Selassie, self-indulgent, ineffective and feckless royal - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/36 "2010-05-25T06:49:18Z")
2 - Selassie - not in the same class as the rest 2 - David - ditto 1 - Attila - built nothing, just destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/37 "2010-05-25T09:05:30Z")
Moses - 1 Victoria - 1 Haile Selassie - 1 Henry V of England - 2 Since you guys are picking on the _Scourge of God_, I’ve decided to go after _The Great Warrior King_. His empire was much shorter-lived than that of Attila. His victory at Agincourt owes much to Henry’s rashness, French incompetence, and simple luck. Henry’s slaughtering of his noble prisoners at Agincourt may have been justified, but his campaign 2 years later was even more ruthless: > [@](#): > > When English king Henry V besieged the city of Rouen, the defenders expelled the weak and the poor to conserve food. The English refused to allow these unfortunates through their lines. Old men, women, and children huddled between the city and the English army for months, scrabbling for scraps and dying of starvation, until surrender was negotiated. > > … King Henry V of England took the city of Caen after a long siege in 1417. He then allowed his army to sack the city from one end to the other in payment for the defender’s stout resistance. Every man in the city who was not a priest was killed. Winston Churchill wrote: > [@](#): > > .. [Henry’s Empire] was hollow and false… he opened the greatest tragedy in our medieval history. Agincourt was a glittering victory, but the wasteful and useless campaigns that followed more than outweighed its military and moral value, and the miserable, destroying century that ensued casts its black shadow upon Henry’s heroic triumph. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not particularly opposed to Henry V, who was a man of his time and was indeed a “Great Warrior-King.” But it does seem hypocritical to praise this Christian, while condemning the heathen who was a better warrior, more loved by his people, and much more influential. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/38 "2010-05-25T09:24:11Z")
Charles de Gaulle- _Deux Point 😛 (2 Points)_. Lost Algeria and was the subject of numerous assassination attempts, including one with similarities to _The Day Of The Jackal_. Solon- _1 Point_. It’s not democracy when most people don’t get a vote anyway. Tomas Masaryk- _2 Points_. Just not in the same league as most of the others on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/39 "2010-05-25T12:35:45Z")
Attila 2 Henry V 2 David 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/40 "2010-05-25T13:16:17Z")
**Martini** , Algeria was pretty much lost already by the time de Gaulle became president. I’d credit him for recognizing reality and ending an enormously expensive and unwinnable war. **septimus** , not that it makes it right, but Julius Caesar also once refused to help the expelled people of the city he was besieging: [Battle of Alesia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=3)