# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/41 "2010-05-25T16:28:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **septimus** , not that it makes it right, but Julius Caesar also once refused to help the expelled people of the city he was besieging: [Battle of Alesia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia) Several leaders on the list (perhaps even Abraham Lincoln!) were responsible for many deaths; I guess we have to decide what they “have to show for” the deaths. Attila changed the history of Europe. Although he might have briefly had fame equivalent to that of Schwarzenegger or Stallone (:p) Henry V’s campaigns had little or no long-term impact. IIRC, many of the English infantrymen at Agincourt had dysentery so bad they fought with their pants off! I’m not sure if that fact makes their battle success seem more heoric or less heroic! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/42 "2010-05-25T17:55:17Z")
Santa Anna - 2 Attila - 2 Menes - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/43 "2010-05-25T17:58:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Attila changed the history of Europe. How? The Roman Empire was falling apart anyway. Alaric had already sacked Rome in 410. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/44 "2010-05-25T18:39:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How? The Roman Empire was falling apart anyway. Alaric had already sacked Rome in 410. Intrigue between Romans and Celtic or Germanic tribes had been habitual for centuries; the sacking of Rome was hardly the first time Italy had been invaded. Celts and Germans were even in the process of Christianization. While the beginning preceded Attila’s birth slightly, it was the _ **Hunnic invasion** _ from Central Asia that changed the politics of Europe: [During the European migrations marking the transition from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period) > [@](#): > > The first to formally enter Roman territory — _ **as refugees from the Huns** _ — were the Visigoths in 376. Tolerated by the Romans on condition that they defend the Danube frontier, they rebelled, eventually invading Italy and sacking Rome itself in 410 … (my emphasis) The Hunnic Empire dissipated after Attila’s death. (And the Napoleanic Empire didn’t survive Napolean.) Some Hunnic influence may have survived in Europe, e.g. in Gothic, Norse and Balkan cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/45 "2010-05-26T04:57:12Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Attila the Hun, leader of rapacious hordes who built little that lasted - 2 > Genghis Khan, ditto - 2 Not that I have any kind of bias or anything ;), but I think you’re selling poor Genghis short. He did create an unparalleled military system for his day and established the largest land empire the world has ever seen, with an understandably very significant impact on the international trade system. Further, as to longevity, his state remained a still-expanding unitary colossus a generation after his death, the four large individual khanates that thereafter continued his legacy were everywhere the regional superpowers for another three generations, one large component lasted until 1502 essentially intact and his dynasty remained in power as late as 1783 (in Crimean Khanate ), more than five and a half centuries after he passed away. Genghisid lineage was the gold standard for legitimacy in much of western and central Asia for centuries - the Ottomans were considered as a dynasty rather intrinsically less prestigious than their nominal vassals the Giraids of Crimea ( who were rumored to have been planning a coup to replace them during a particularly chaotic point in the 17th century ). I’d dump my namesake before Genghis. But anyway :D… **Attila** - 1 pt. May get less credit than he deserves, but his state did prove pretty ephemeral. **Moses** - 1 pt. Too likely fictional or heavily fictionalized to give much consideration, I’m afraid. **David** - 1 pt. Similar to the above and a pretty minor nation all things considered. **Wellington** - 1 pt. As before. **Lech Walesa** - 1 pt. Time to get rid of some of these moderns. Accomplished less than Masaryk IMHO and his presidency was not particularly successful. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/46 "2010-05-26T06:10:17Z")
David-1 Moses-1 Cory Aquino-1 Santa Anna-2 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/47 "2010-05-26T19:07:04Z")
The votes: **Attila the Hun - 10 David - 9 Moses - 7** Henry V - 4 Haile Selassie - 4 Santa Anna - 4 Duke of Wellington - 3 Oliver Cromwell, Charles de Gaulle, Genghis Khan, Tomas Masaryk - 2 each Cory Aquino, Menes, Solon, Umar, Victoria, Lech Walesa - 1 each The top three are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Cory Aquino - Restored Philippines democracy Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire David Ben-Gurion - First Israeli PM Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Simon Bolivar - Latin America liberator Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Charlemagne - Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Oliver Cromwell - English republican leader Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Charles de Gaulle - Led modern France Deng Xiaoping - Remade modern China Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Gandhi - Independence through peace Genghis Khan - Mongol Empire founder Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Henry V of England - Legendary warrior-king Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Nelson Mandela - Overcame imprisonment, triumphed Tomas Masaryk - Czechoslovakia’s founding president Meiji Emperor - Created modern Japan Menes - Egypt-uniting pharaoh Muhammad - United all Arabia Napoleon I - French expansionist emperor Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Pitt the Elder - Noted British PM Anwar El Sadat - Egyptian warrior, peacemaker Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Antonio López de Santa Anna - Mexican nationalist leader Haile Selassie - Ethiopia’s longtime emperor Shaka Zulu - United Zulu tribes Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Solon - Founded Athenian democracy Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire Victoria - Noted British sovereign Lech Walesa - Polish leader, inspiration George Washington - First U.S. president Duke of Wellington - Statesman, general, gentleman The current round of voting will end on Fri. May 28 at noon EST. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/48 "2010-05-26T19:29:16Z")
Henry V 2 Lech Walesa 1 Duke of Wellington 1 Charlemagne 1 I trust Tamerlane’s judgment on Walesa; Wellington’s main achievements came well before his becoming Prime Minister; Charlemagne’s empire was important as a symbol of Western Europe’s self-assertion against the East, but crumbled quickly as an actual political entity. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/49 "2010-05-26T23:45:04Z")
Santa Anna - 2 Cory Aquino - 2 Haile Selassie - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/50 "2010-05-27T03:30:16Z")
Hanging on and getting mention again: Duke of Wellington – 2 Oliver Cromwell – 2 Making his initial appearance on my list: Santa Anna – 1 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/51 "2010-05-27T05:10:19Z")
Victoria - 1 Haile Selassie - 1 Lech Walesa - 1 Cory Aquino - 1 Henry V - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/52 "2010-05-27T10:53:21Z")
2 - Selassie 1 - Meiji 2 - Aquino ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/53 "2010-05-27T12:09:08Z")
Santa Anna - 2 Cory Aquino - 2 Haile Selassie - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/54 "2010-05-27T13:33:32Z")
Haile Selassie, self-indulgent tyrant who stuck around much too long - 2 Santa Anna, couldn’t hang onto Texas even after winning at the Alamo - 2 Genghis Khan, for the reasons earlier stated - 1 ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/55 "2010-05-27T21:34:09Z")
2- Santa Anna 2- Umar 1- Haile Aelassie ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/56 "2010-05-28T17:47:42Z")
**Henry V** - 1 - I would have dumped him before Robert Bruce, really. A lot of promise unfulfilled by a short reign. **Meiji** - 1 - While he had some personal impact, he was still essentially a figurehead. **Wellington** -1 **Lech Walesa** - 1 **Cory Aquino** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/57 "2010-05-28T18:11:52Z")
The votes: **Haile Selassie - 8 Santa Anna - 8 Cory Aquino - 6** Henry V - 3 Duke of Wellington - 3 Lech Walesa - 2 Oliver Cromwell - 2 Umar - 2 Charlemagne, Genghis Khan, Meiji Emperor, Queen Victoria - 1 each **Tamerlane** , sorry, I didn’t count your votes, since they came in past the noon deadline. Please vote in the next round. The top three are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire David Ben-Gurion - First Israeli PM Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Simon Bolivar - Latin America liberator Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Charlemagne - Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Oliver Cromwell - English republican leader Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Charles de Gaulle - Led modern France Deng Xiaoping - Remade modern China Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Gandhi - Independence through peace Genghis Khan - Mongol Empire founder Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Henry V of England - Legendary warrior-king Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Nelson Mandela - Overcame imprisonment, triumphed Tomas Masaryk - Czechoslovakia’s founding president Meiji Emperor - Created modern Japan Menes - Egypt-uniting pharaoh Muhammad - United all Arabia Napoleon I - French expansionist emperor Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Pitt the Elder - Noted British PM Anwar El Sadat - Egyptian warrior, peacemaker Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Shaka Zulu - United Zulu tribes Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Solon - Founded Athenian democracy Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire Victoria - Noted British sovereign Lech Walesa - Polish leader, inspiration George Washington - First U.S. president Duke of Wellington - Statesman, general, gentleman The current round of voting will end on Mon. May 31 at noon EST. Same rules as before. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/58 "2010-05-28T18:23:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **Tamerlane** , sorry, I didn’t count your votes, since they came in past the noon deadline. Please vote in the next round. No worries. I forgot about the EST thing ( I’m in California ) :). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/59 "2010-05-28T18:24:58Z")
2 - Nelson Mandela 2 - de Gaulle 1 - Nehru ETA: Could you please sort the list - it’ll make it easier to read. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/60 "2010-05-28T20:35:49Z")
Victoria - 2 Lech Walesa - 1 Henry V - 1 Jawaharlal Nehru - 1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=4)