# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/81 "2010-06-03T03:22:13Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Tell me more about the Meiji Emperor. What’s your beef with him? **Tamerlane** basically covered it. Admittedly, however, I don’t know as much about him as I do someone such as Victoria, who was also a more symbolic leader but literally defined an era in British history that I’ve studied at some length, especially with regard to literature. Anyway, Mutsuhito (his personal name, albeit not used by most Japanese since his death) is now gone. That leaves my votes for this round as follows: Pitt the Elder (even though he did outclass Lord Palmerston\*) – 2 Gandhi – 2 (he never actually served as head of state, though he might have had Indian independence been achieved earlier) – 2 Charlemagne – 2 (other posters in this thread have convinced me he’s overrated) Mikhail Gorbachev – 2 (influence seems to be waning with time) \*[Obligatory Simpsons reference](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0701114/quotes) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/82 "2010-06-03T04:24:30Z")
Not enough people participating in this game. And I know why… It’s me. I _never_ participate in internet games and now I’ve gone and jinxed this one :D. > [@septimus](#): > > I also think Victoria is over-rated and was surprised I didn’t vote for her this round. … Then I looked again and saw _she’s already been eliminated_. Oops. Well nobody ever said I was smart. Or could read, apparently. > [@](#): > > PS: No “thank you” for my nominating _you_, **Tamerlane**? Well, thank you kindly. Though honestly I’m not betting on him winning :). Well, let’s see, who is left? **Pitt the Elder** - 2 pts.- Impressive career, but not enough in this crew. **Menes** - 2 pts. - No knock on the achievements of ancient Egypt, but unlike his Chinese counterpart, Menes is semi-mythological. He’s more of a symbol of union than a historical figure we can point to as definitively having done this or that. **Anwar El Sadat** - 2 pts. - Another impressive career and the Israeli rapproachment, such as it was, is still reverberating a bit. But not enough. **Thomas Jefferson** - 1 pt. - Time to toss an American. I’ve been going back and forth between TJ ( “founding father” and his contribution to the Second Continental Congress, Declaration, et al. ) and FDR ( longer, more eventful presidency ). Finally decided for consistency’s sake that it was the presidential terms that should govern. **Solon** - 1 pt. - Suffers somewhat, though to a lesser extent, from the Menes syndrome as above. Hard to know just how much credit he really deserves for what has been attributed to him. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/83 "2010-06-03T05:01:59Z")
Tomas Masaryk - 1 Genghis Khan - 1 Pitt the Elder - 1 Anwar El Sadat - 1 Solon - 2 Jawaharlal Nehru - 2 I’m still feeling scourged by the early dismissal of Attila. 😉 Was it because his empire was short-lived? What about Masaryk?! Was it his bloodshed? What about Genghis?! As Tamerlane points out, Solon can be considered semi-mythical. And as for Sadat, the “great Middle-East peace-maker” … we only wish! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/84 "2010-06-03T15:32:05Z")
For the reasons stated in post 74: Deng Xiaoping - 2 Genghis Khan - 2 Thomas Jefferson - 2 And Napoleon I, who got 'way too overambitious, united the rest of Europe against him, and didn’t know when to call it a day - 2 ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/85 "2010-06-03T20:09:50Z")
Umar-2 Julius Caesar-2 Mandela-2 Deng Xiaoping - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/86 "2010-06-04T13:33:40Z")
2 - Napoleon - over-rated adventurer 2 - Sadat - not in the same league 2 - Mandela - ditto 2 - Masaryk - his country’s already split. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/87 "2010-06-04T16:39:03Z")
The votes: **Anwar El Sadat - 5 Pitt the Elder - 5 Deng Xiaping - 4 Napoleon I - 4 Nelson Mandela - 4** Genghis Khan, Jefferson, Masaryk, Solon - 3 each Charlemagne, Gandhi, Gorbachev, Julius Caesar, Menes, Nehru, Umar - 2 each The top five are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire David Ben-Gurion - First Israeli PM Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Simon Bolivar - Latin America liberator Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Charlemagne - Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Gandhi - Independence through peace Genghis Khan - Mongol Empire founder Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Tomas Masaryk - Czechoslovakia’s founding president Menes - Egypt-uniting pharaoh Muhammad - United all Arabia Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Shaka Zulu - United Zulu tribes Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Solon - Founded Athenian democracy Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Mon. June 7 at noon EST. To shake things up a little… New rules: Each player now has ten votes, and may use up to five against any particular leader in this round (thus, five votes each against two leaders, or five votes against one leader, with the other five votes split among two or more others, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/88 "2010-06-04T17:08:38Z")
Mikhail Gorbachev – 5 points Charlemagne – 4 points Mahatma Gandhi – 1 point Revised rules mean I don’t have to add any new names this round! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/89 "2010-06-04T22:07:41Z")
3 - Masaryk 3 - Shaka Zulu 2 - Nehru 2 - Gandhi ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/90 "2010-06-05T00:09:03Z")
Shaka Zulu-5 points Tamerlane-5 points ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/91 "2010-06-05T02:06:49Z")
**Menes** - 5 - Too close to mythical. **Solon** - 3 - Ditto in a slightly less semi-mythical, but still difficult to attribute way. **Thomas Jefferson** - 2 pts. - Was not _central_ to the American Revolution in the way that Gandhi or Masaryk were to their respective independence movements. Masaryk also led his country for the first 17 years of its existence, as opposed to Jefferson’s shorter ( and much later ) Presidential stint. re: Gandhi - Though he never held office per se, I’d argue he was a de facto national leader in most of his years as an independence advocate ( say from 1921-1948 ). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/92 "2010-06-05T05:41:04Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > …re: Gandhi - Though he never held office per se, I’d argue he was a de facto national leader in most of his years as an independence advocate ( say from 1921-1948 ). Agreed. That’s why I left him in at the outset. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/93 "2010-06-05T06:14:55Z")
Tomas Masaryk - 2 Genghis Khan - 2 Solon - 2 Jawaharlal Nehru - 2 Nebuchadnezzar II - 2 ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/94 "2010-06-06T01:02:43Z")
Shaka Zulu- 5 Gandhi- 5 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/95 "2010-06-06T01:52:55Z")
Thomas Jefferson - 5 Genghis Khan - 5 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/96 "2010-06-07T00:00:25Z")
5 - Charlemagne 3 - Shaka Zulu 2 - Thomas Jefferson ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/97 "2010-06-07T15:55:51Z")
Got to dump Pitt. English leaders are overrepresented on the list, and he wasn’t that important. Moses gets a 2 as probably fictional, and David gets 2. Wish I’d noticed the setup thread. Akbar should definitely be on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/98 "2010-06-07T17:03:24Z")
The votes: **Shaka Zulu 13 Charlemagne 9 Thomas Jefferson 9 Gandhi 8 Genghis Khan 7** Gorbachev 5 Masaryk 5 Menes 5 Solon 5 Tamerlane 5 Nehru 4 Nebuchadnezzar II 2 **RNATB** , all three of those for whom you voted this morning had already been voted out. The top five are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire David Ben-Gurion - First Israeli PM Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Simon Bolivar - Latin America liberator Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Tomas Masaryk - Czechoslovakia’s founding president Menes - Egypt-uniting pharaoh Muhammad - United all Arabia Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Solon - Founded Athenian democracy Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Weds. June 9 at noon EST. Same rules as the most recent round: ten votes per player, no more than five against any single ruler, etc. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/99 "2010-06-07T17:45:04Z")
Tomas Masaryk - 3 Solon - 4 Nebuchadnezzar II - 2 Jawaharlal Nehru - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/100 "2010-06-07T18:10:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **RNATB** , all three of those for whom you voted this morning had already been voted out. Didn’t notice there was another page. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=6)