# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/101 "2010-06-07T20:39:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Didn’t notice there was another page. :smack: No prob. Please vote again! ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/102 "2010-06-07T21:26:37Z")
Holdover: Mikhail Gorbachev – 5 points New guy: Solon – 5 points ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/103 "2010-06-08T08:15:02Z")
3 - Masaryk 3 - Ben Gurion 4 - Bolivar ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/104 "2010-06-08T13:26:28Z")
Simon Bolivar, who ultimately failed, leaving a legacy of squabbling petty republics/dictatorships in South America - 5 Menes, about whom I know little but who appears largely mythical/fictitious - 5 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/105 "2010-06-08T13:31:06Z")
Masaryk - 4 Ben Gurion - 3 Alfred - 3 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/106 "2010-06-08T13:41:38Z")
Ben Gurion 4 Menes 4 Justinian 2 Justinian’s (and Belisarius’s) reconquests pretty badly overextended the Empire. It wasn’t that long before they lost it all and more. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/107 "2010-06-11T13:09:13Z")
Sorry - got distracted and missed Wednesday’s deadline. I’ll simply extend it to noon EST today, which would’ve been the end of the next round anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/108 "2010-06-11T17:15:53Z")
The votes: **David Ben-Gurion 10 Tomas Masaryk 10 Simon Bolivar 9 Menes 9 Solon 9** Mikhail Gorbachev 5 Alfred 3 Justinian 2 Nebuchadnezzar II 2 Nehru 1 The top five are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Mikhail Gorbachev - Reformed Soviet Union Hammurabi - First written laws Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Justinian I - Unleashed Gen. Belisarius Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Louis XIV - France’s “Sun King” Muhammad - United all Arabia Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Jawaharlal Nehru - Indian prime minister Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Mon. June 14 at noon EST. Same rules as the previous round: ten votes per player, no more than five against any single ruler, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/109 "2010-06-11T17:30:54Z")
Justianian 3 Frederick II 3 Julius Caesar 4\* Wasn’t a national leader for very long, after all, even in a _de facto_ sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/110 "2010-06-12T04:27:07Z")
Hanging on: Mikhail Gorbachev – 5 Making his entrance: Justinian I – 5 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/111 "2010-06-12T18:25:20Z")
Louis XIV left a mess for his successor - 5 Muhammad probably doesn’t deserve all the credit he’s gotten - 5 BTW, for those who voted for David Ben-Gurion, may I ask why? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/112 "2010-06-12T20:46:40Z")
3 - Asoka - who? 3 - Alexander - his empire disintegrated on his death. 2 - Gorbachev 2 - Nehru - mismanaged independence and partition, responsible for many deaths ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/113 "2010-06-13T06:10:46Z")
Jawaharlal Nehru - 5 Nebuchadnezzar II - 2 Louis XIV - 2 Elizabeth I of England - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/114 "2010-06-13T17:44:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > 3 - Asoka - who? Arguably the first truly benevolent dictator. Ruled the largest contiguous empire until the the Mongols came along, covering basically all of the inhabitable bits of the Indian subcontinent. Almost solely responsible for the modern spread of Buddhism. IMHO, there are only two Indians who belong on this list- Asoka and Akbar. [H.G. Wells’ _Short History of the World_, Chapter 29](http://www.bartleby.com/86/29.html): > [@](#): > > FOR some generations after the death of Gautama, these high and noble Buddhist teachings, this first plain teaching that the highest good for man is the subjugation of self, made comparatively little headway in the world. Then they conquered the imagination of one of the greatest monarchs the world has ever seen > We have already mentioned how Alexander the Great came down into India and fought with Porus upon the Indus. It is related by the Greek historians that a certain Chandragupta Maurya came into Alexander’s camp and tried to persuade him to go on to the Ganges and conquer all India. Alexander could not do this because of the refusal of his Macedonians to go further into what was for them an unknown world, and later on (321 B.C.) Chandragupta was able to secure the help of various hill tribes and realize his dream without Greek help. He built up an empire in North India and was presently (303 B.C.) able to attack Seleucus I in the Punjab and drive the last vestige of Greek power out of India. His son extended this new empire. His grandson, Asoka, the monarch of whom we now have to tell, found himself in 264 B.C. ruling from Afghanistan to Madras. > Asoka was at first disposed to follow the example of his father and grandfather and complete the conquest of the Indian peninsula. He invaded Kalinga (255 B.C.), a country on the east coast of Madras, he was successful in his military operations and—alone among conquerors—he was so disgusted by the cruelty and horror of war that he renounced it. He would have no more of it. He adopted the peaceful doctrines of Buddhism and declared that henceforth his conquests should be the conquests of religion. 3 > His reign for eight-and-twenty years was one of the brightest interludes in the troubled history of mankind. He organized a great digging of wells in India and the planting of trees for shade. He founded hospitals and public gardens and gardens for the growing of medicinal herbs. He created a ministry for the care of the aborigines and subject races of India. He made provision for the education of women. He made vast benefactions to the Buddhist teaching orders, and tried to stimulate them to a better and more energetic criticism of their own accumulated literature. For corruptions and superstitious accretions had accumulated very speedily upon the pure and simple teaching of the great Indian master. Missionaries went from Asoka to Kashmir, to Persia, to Ceylon and Alexandria. > Such was Asoka, greatest of kings. He was far in advance of his age. He left no prince and no organization of men to carry on his work, and within a century of his death the great days of his reign had become a glorious memory in a shattered and decaying India. The priestly caste of the Brahmins, the highest and most privileged caste in the Indian social body, has always been opposed to the frank and open teaching of Buddha. Gradually they undermined the Buddhist influence in the land. The old monstrous gods, the innumerable cults of Hinduism, resumed their sway. Caste became more rigorous and complicated. For long centuries Buddhism and Brahminism flourished side by side, and then slowly Buddhism decayed and Brahminism in a multitude of forms replaced it. But beyond the confines of India and the realms of caste Buddhism spread—until it had won China and Siam and Burma and Japan, countries in which it is predominant to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/115 "2010-06-14T13:52:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Arguably the first truly benevolent dictator. It was a semi-rhetorical question. Ironically, your response highlights why: > [@](#): > > He left no prince and no organization of men to carry on his work, and within a century of his death the great days of his reign had become a glorious memory in a shattered and decaying India ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/116 "2010-06-14T13:58:50Z")
Justinian 4 Tamerlane 4 Saladin 2 Tamerlane for excessive cruelty (as I recall he innovated on the old Mongol “pyramid of skulls” concept by not requiring that the skulls be fully severed from the bodies, or indeed dead, before being added to the pile). Saladin because the Ayyubid dynasty didn’t survive his grandchildren, as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/117 "2010-06-14T14:25:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It was a semi-rhetorical question. Ironically, your response highlights why: Well, there is that. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/118 "2010-06-14T16:27:32Z")
The votes: **Justinian I - 12 Mikhail Gorbachev - 7 Louis XIV - 7 Jawaharlal Nehru - 7** Muhammad - 5 Julius Caesar, Tamerlane - 4 each Alexander, Asoka, Frederick II - 3 each Nebuchadnezzar II, Saladin - 2 each Elizabeth I - 1 The top four are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Alfred the Great - Scholar, warrior, statesman Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Hammurabi - First written laws Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Muhammad - United all Arabia Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Tamerlane the Great - Clever, liberal conqueror Umar - Expanded Islamic empire George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Weds. June 16 at noon EST. Same rules as the previous round: ten votes per player, no more than five against any single leader, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/119 "2010-06-14T16:31:43Z")
Woo. I still have 4 nominees in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/120 "2010-06-14T16:53:02Z")
**Washington - 5**. I mean, he was a great _man_, but he wasn’t really great shakes as a President. He set a good precedent vis-a-vis term limits and set a bad precedent vis-a-vis isolationism, and that was about it. **Alfred the Great - 5**. Ruled less than half of modern England, and had little impact on the history of the world outside his bucolic isle, unlike many later English monarchs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=7)