# Greatest National Leader elimination game (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098 "2010-05-20T03:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/121 "2010-06-14T18:11:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Washington - 5**. I mean, he was a great _man_, but he wasn’t really great shakes as a President. He set a good precedent vis-a-vis term limits and set a bad precedent vis-a-vis isolationism, and that was about it… Not so. He established the Cabinet system and recruited the best men for the jobs (an all-star Cabinet incl. Jefferson, Hamilton, Knox, etc.), adroitly upheld American neutrality during the Anglo-French wars, appointed the entire Federal judiciary, gained approval for the construction of six excellent frigates as the foundation of the U.S. Navy, backed Hamilton’s reform plans which set the infant republic on sound economic and fiscal footing, put down the Whiskey Rebellion and then pardoned its leaders, saw to the establishment of the Federal City that would later bear his name, etc. He toured every state and knit the country together by his example of character and leadership. Washington got a _lot_ done in eight years as President. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/122 "2010-06-14T22:41:29Z")
4 - Ataturk: not in the same league as the others. 3 - Alexander: his empire fragmented on his death. 3 - Bismarck: he was the power behind the throne rather than the one on it. And I agree about Washington - indeed Alfred the Great is very much his Dark Age cognate. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/123 "2010-06-15T01:00:54Z")
Two newcomers for me this time around: Alfred the Great – 5 Tamerlane – 5 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/124 "2010-06-15T04:35:52Z")
I still have four nominees left – Whoopee! But two of mine are now being targetted. ☹ > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Alfred the Great - 5**. Ruled less than half of modern England, and had little impact on the history of the world outside his bucolic isle, unlike many later English monarchs. Influential is not the same as great, but anyway I would argue Alfred was \* both\*. Yes the Danes controlled more of England than Alfred did, but the English speak English don’t they? If one man deserves primary credit for the English speaking English, that man is King Alfred the Great. And not only did his deeds prevent Danish from taking over, the proud memory of this great English hero may have helped prevent French from becoming the national language and culture after 1066. Alfred was a genuine scholar, a great warrior, and a shrewd and charismatic leader. He was a true Unifier: before Alfred one reads of Kings of Wessex, Kings of Kent, Kings of Mercia, etc. After Alfred … Kings of England. The story of Alfred’s survival, and that of England itself, during the darkest hours of war reads like a fairy tale. It’s easy for me to agree that Alfred was England’s greatest Monarch. I’d like to hear an argument for Elizabeth being 2nd greatest, let alone 1st. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/125 "2010-06-15T12:28:35Z")
Voting Tamerlane 4 Saladin 3 Winston Churchill 3 (great during and just before WWII, but Gallipoli was a disaster and his attempt to hang onto the vestiges of the Empire after WWII was both ineffectual and wrongheaded) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/126 "2010-06-15T15:48:53Z")
Asoka, whose accomplishments were more transitory than most of the others remaining - 5 Muhammad - ditto I’ll put in a word for Elizabeth I of England. She crafted the Elizabethan Settlement which finally quelled the Protestant-Catholic infighting that had been tearing the country apart. She defended the country against the Spanish Armada and numerous plots. She adroitly used her (purported) virgin status to keep her marriage and dynastic prospects open, and thus preserved English diplomatic options. She sparingly used English troops overseas just as needed, unlike many of her fellow monarchs. She was a patron of the arts, sciences and exploration, giving an entire era of peace and prosperity for her countrymen the very name “the Elizabethan Age.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/127 "2010-06-15T15:56:27Z")
I’m a little surprised that transitory accomplishments are being dismissed. I would consider it more impressive if someone managed to hold together a country or empire by sheer force of will than because it was actually stable. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/128 "2010-06-17T17:28:14Z")
Sorry - late to the thread again. The votes: **Alfred the Great - 10 Tamerlane the (Likewise) Great - 9** Asoka, Muhammad, Washington - 5 each Ataturk - 4 Alexander, Bismarck, Churchill, Saladin - 3 each The top two are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Asoka - Early India leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Modernized, ruled Turkey Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Hammurabi - First written laws Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Muhammad - United all Arabia Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Franklin Delano Roosevelt - 32nd American president Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Umar - Expanded Islamic empire George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Fri. June 18 at noon EST. Same rules as the previous round: ten votes per player, no more than five against any single leader, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/129 "2010-06-18T00:58:41Z")
Not feeling especially desirous of booting any of the remaining leaders, so I’ll split my vote five ways this time around: Ataturk – 2 Frederick II --2 Peter the Great – 2 Franklin Delano Roosevelt – 2 Umar --2 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/130 "2010-06-18T01:01:03Z")
Well, I’ll stick with last round’s votes: Saladin 5 Churchill 5 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/131 "2010-06-18T01:41:07Z")
What’s your beef with Churchill? Asoka - 5 Muhammad - 5 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/132 "2010-06-18T05:36:57Z")
I too will stick by my earlier choices: 4 - Ataturk: not in the same league as the others. 3 - Alexander: his empire fragmented on his death. 3 - Bismarck: he was the power behind the throne rather than the one on it. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/133 "2010-06-18T14:25:38Z")
Hmmm…getting tougher to cull… **Isabella** - 5. An effective and strong-willed monarch. However the creation of Spain in her lifetime is exaggerated in the particulars - the crowns of Castille and Aragon in particular retained a pronounced dualism, with the adoption of the viceroyalty system hindering the creation of a unitary state. Ferdinand was arguably more important to the union, as he was an active ruler in Castille ( including for eight years after her death as Regent ), while Isabella was only a consort in Aragon. Isabella’s bigotry towards Jews and Muslims was pretty extreme and arguably harmed the country to at least some minor extent. And they inadvertently ( or shortsightedly if you want to be harsher ) made some serious long-term mistakes, as in the promotion of transhumance sheep-raising over farming, which suited the search for immediate revenues ( from wool exports ), but would come back to bite Spain in the ass decades down the line. **Roosevelt** - 5. A very important president, whether you embrace the New Deal as successful ( or desirable ) or not. But starting to lose out to other figures here. The importance of the United States in modern history tends to magnify the importance of presidents, but their shorter “reigns” and their lack of hegemonic authority puts them at a disadvantage in competitions like this. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/134 "2010-06-18T14:31:23Z")
Churchill - as explained above, Gallipoli and his post-WWII tenure as PM. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/135 "2010-06-18T15:08:04Z")
In fact if I may digress just a little for a moment (hope that’s not against the rules 😉 ), I think the importance of U.S. presidents generally tends to be just a little exaggerated, both in scholarly history and in the popular imagination. While I buy very loosely into the ‘Great Man’ theory of history, I do tend to think that in the case of the U.S. the symbolic position of the Head of State tends to shortchange the importance of congressional history and the impact of legislatures. A Nebuchadnezzar II or a Saladin was far, far, FAR more important to their respective states than a Roosevelt was to the United States. Which doesn’t necessarily mean they automatically would trump him as a “great national leader” ( though in this case I’d argue that they do ). As I said the U.S. looms so large in recent history that even the short-lived and constrained power of a president can still have enormous historical impact. Nor am I arguing that the U.S. congress usually has an historical importance equal or comparable to a president - as a single executive locus and the usual setter of agendas, the presidency is of course more important. But I do think presidents get more credit, both positive and negative, than perhaps they should relative to a more dominating authoritarian figure like an Ataturk. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/136 "2010-06-18T16:23:10Z")
Hmmm. Getting a bit tougher. The votes: **Franklin D. Roosevelt - 7 Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - 6** Asoka, Churchill, Isabella, Muhammad, Saladin - 5 each Alexander the Great, Otto von Bismarck - 3 each Frederick II, Peter the Great, Umar - 2 each The top two are now gone. That leaves: Alexander the Great - Macedonian conqueror, emperor Asoka - Early India leader Caesar Augustus - Founded Roman Empire Otto von Bismarck - United German kingdoms Gaius Julius Caesar - Roman dictator, general Winston Churchill - British wartime inspiration Cyrus the Great - Great, benevolent conqueror Elizabeth I of England - Shrewd, determined queen Frederick II - Ruled 1700s Prussia Hammurabi - First written laws Isabella I of Castille - Unified, developed Spain Abraham Lincoln - Won Civil War Muhammad - United all Arabia Nebuchadnezzar II - Babylon’s greatest ruler Rameses II - Egypt’s greatest pharaoh Peter the Great - Modernized, expanded Russia Saladin - Muslim leader, warrior Qin Shi Huang - Unified China emperor Umar - Expanded Islamic empire George Washington - First U.S. president The current round of voting will end on Mon. June 21 at noon EST. Same rules as the previous round: ten votes per player, no more than five against any single leader, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/137 "2010-06-18T16:27:06Z")
Hm. Going to change my votes slightly based on Tamerlane’s arguments: Saladin 4 Churchill 3 Isabella 3 (for the Moors and the Jews). Ataturk is my second nominee down; I have 3 left, but 2 of them got votes last round. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/138 "2010-06-18T16:41:26Z")
Same as before: Asoka - 5 Muhammad - 5 I still have three nominees on the board, too. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/139 "2010-06-18T16:47:18Z")
3 - Alexander 3 - Asoka 4 - Bismarck ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098/140 "2010-06-18T17:05:47Z")
Otto von Bismarck - 5 Elizabeth I of England - 5 (I missed a round. Do I get twice the votes this round? 😉 ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-national-leader-elimination-game-game-thread/540098.md?page=8)