# Greatest population loss to still be civilized **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 2, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207 "2014-07-02T17:23:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207/21 "2014-07-03T15:00:17Z")
I think the key factor is keeping the lights on. Without electricity, things would get real ugly, real fast. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207/22 "2014-07-04T00:13:45Z")
Civilization might change in one direction in one metric and the other direction in another metric. For example, if everybody gets richer, but less moral. Has the civilization quotient gone up or down? How do you know whether the population loss has pushed across an arbitrary threshold of “civilization”? ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207/23 "2014-07-04T00:30:44Z")
This may well be a minor concern, but at what mortality rate would disposing of the bodies turn into a real problem? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207/24 "2014-07-04T00:36:50Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > There are examples of nations that experience a population decline, and thrive economically in spite of or because of it. The Republic of Ireland comes to mind. > > There is probably no way to ever test this, even theoretically. You could never be sure the decline was not selective, unless it were a catastrophe that would by itself bring the culture to a reactive crisis. What percentage of Iraqis were killed by the USA? How disfunctional is their society now? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207/25 "2014-07-04T01:18:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Black Death caused massive mortality very quickly in Europe - something half of the population - in some places, allegedly, closer to 75%. There were significant long-term social changes, but aside from the acute terror effects, life more or less kept going as it had - certainly, society did not collapse or come to an end. You could even argue that the Black Death had a net positive effect for civilization. The plague caused a labor shortage, leading to higher wages and better conditions for workers, and more social mobility (attempts by the elites to keep the status quo by capping wages would lead to peasant revolts). At the time, Europe was overpopulated and straining its available resources, and a lower population meant a decrease in land prices and better living conditions for those who survived. It presented a huge challenge to people’s religious beliefs and the authority of the Church, leading many down new spiritual paths. It led to an interest in better sanitation and a more sensible understanding of diseases than astrology or black magic. If you push it far enough, you could say that the Black Death led to (or at least hastened) the end of feudalism, the beginnings of modern capitalism, the Reformation, an increase in secular thought, humanism, the Renaissance, and modern medicine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greatest-population-loss-to-still-be-civilized/692207.md?page=1)