# Greece voted against the bailout. F\*\*\* Them. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353 "2015-07-05T22:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/61 "2015-07-07T19:11:38Z")
Please don’t call it a “Grexit”, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/62 "2015-07-07T19:31:31Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I stand corrected, but neither humbled or interested. I think readers got my point. Here is a reader from Norway and I really didn’t get your point. And **Novelty Bobble’s** point is quite relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/63 "2015-07-07T20:01:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The upshot of it all is that it seems like a pretty strong signal that there is a very very strong reluctance to let the Greeks leave, which seems to me to play to the Greeks’ favor. (They, by contrast, seem content to keep calling the EU’s bluff.) Part of it is the reluctance to set a precedent for Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Ireland. So, yes, that does play in the Greeks’ favor. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/64 "2015-07-07T20:04:44Z")
The flip side of that argument is that giving significant concessions to the Greeks would also set a precedent for Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Ireland. So that cuts both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/65 "2015-07-07T20:30:55Z")
Another argument against bailing out Greece is that it would be sending good money after bad, money that would be better spent bailing out Italy or Spain, who might be motivated to accept conditions because of the example made of Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/66 "2015-07-07T22:30:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Personally, I don’t think anyone…economists in particular…know exactly what the effects are likely to be from any course of action. The 2008 crash (and others before it) showed just how misguided learned economists can be and how little predictive power their models have and/or how little people trust their judgements. We’ve learned a lot in the past century and a half… For example, ignorant economists would have let the major banks suffer a mutual and catastrophic bankruptcy during the early stages of the financial crisis. Who are they to predict whether that was good or bad? Except…they learned from the Great Depression that a massive collapse of the money supply leads to horror. Similarly, a Greek default would not be unprecedented. There is a general consensus that in the short-term a default would be very, very bad for Greece. Having shattered trust in their solvency, they would be virtually unable to borrow money for a while. If, and it’s a big “if”, they can reform their spending to regain fiscal integrity, then they could borrow and function as a normal economy. If they stay in the Eurozone/EU, they have the buoy of their heavy-hitter friends in Germany and France, and would suffer little short-term pain. The fact that the Greeks are willing to whine like petulant children and go over the cliff rather than fix the structural issues that plague their country goes to show that the hope of a “soft default” and long-term boom is sorely misguided. They are digging their own grave, and dancing in the streets as they sink. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/67 "2015-07-08T01:11:03Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Since we have so many economists in this thread, can I ask a tangential question? > > In the US, Mississippi and similar states have a GDP per capita of about $30k. Delaware and Alaska are twice as wealthy - they have GDPs per capita of about $60k. These “strong” and “weak” state economies co-exist in a union in which they both use the same currency, which neither of them have any control over. Apparently, this does not cause problems. > > Meanwhile, in Europe, the strong Germany economy has a GDP of about US$46k, and the weak Greek economy is on $US26k. Apparently, the fact that Greece can’t devalue its currency is a huge problem for it, in a way that it’s not for Mississippi. > > Why is this? > > Obviously I know that the Greek government has a problem right now that they’re deep in debt. But - could this same thing not happen to a State government in the US or Australia or some other federated country? Is there a mechanism to deal with it if it does? Actually, something quite similar is happening in the U.S., the [Puerto Rico Debt Crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_debt_crisis). Matt Yglesias has a couple of good summaries on Vox, one with [some detail](http://www.vox.com/2015/7/1/8872553/puerto-rico-crisis), and one explaining it in 500 words, which notes: > [@](#): > > Puerto Rico and its various public corporations are saddled with debts that the island’s governor, Alejandro García Padilla, says are “not payable” and lock them into a “death spiral” from which only some form of non-payment can allow them to escape. > > . . . > > The austerity budgets further damaged the Puerto Rican economy and encouraged Puerto Ricans to migrate to the mainland United States. Consequently, Puerto Rico’s population has been steadily falling for years. Each person who leaves increases the amount of debt that each remaining person has to pay. And the tighter each Puerto Rican is squeezed by debt service payments, the more the economy suffers and emigration is encouraged. > > . . . > > Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush, and Martin O’Malley have all come out in favor of changing the bankruptcy code to let Puerto Rican municipalities file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy, but congressional Republicans deem this a “bailout” and won’t agree. I must note that, except for the somewhat vitriolic OP, this thread has a decidedly non-Pit flavor. In fact, it is probably the best explanation of the different viewpoints on the Greek debt crisis that I have seen. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/68 "2015-07-08T02:01:47Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > We’ve learned a lot in the past century and a half… > > For example, ignorant economists would have let the major banks suffer a mutual and catastrophic bankruptcy during the early stages of the financial crisis. Who are they to predict whether that was good or bad? Except…they learned from the Great Depression that a massive collapse of the money supply leads to horror. > > Similarly, a Greek default would not be unprecedented. There is a general consensus that in the short-term a default would be very, very bad for Greece. Having shattered trust in their solvency, they would be virtually unable to borrow money for a while. If, and it’s a big “if”, they can reform their spending to regain fiscal integrity, then they could borrow and function as a normal economy. If they stay in the Eurozone/EU, they have the buoy of their heavy-hitter friends in Germany and France, and would suffer little short-term pain. > > The fact that the Greeks are willing to whine like petulant children and go over the cliff rather than fix the structural issues that plague their country goes to show that the hope of a “soft default” and long-term boom is sorely misguided. They are digging their own grave, and dancing in the streets as they sink. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_516ml5ImGU) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/69 "2015-07-08T02:38:57Z")
[quote=“zoid, post:68, topic:724353”] [/QUOTE] Would it fucking kill you to put some explanation of what the goddamn video is about? We need a new board rule for this bullshit. “You post a YouTube link, you explain what it is or suffer an automatic 30 day suspension.” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/70 "2015-07-08T02:56:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > (bolding mine) I assume you realize how that could be seen as bad portent by those who speak English? Yes, that’s why I explain where the name comes from. It comes from the same place that gave _some_ of those who speak English “their” bologna. > [@amanset](#): > > A massive diversion from the OP but … > > Swedish supermarkets can be weird. Unless you’re Swedish and therefore used to them, but that’s part of the whole “abroad is full of foreigners with foreign customs” thing that **CarnalK** was handwaving. Even something like supermarkets varies from country to country, or even region to region. But yeah, picking up stakes to move to a different country is the same as moving from one town to another within the same county (there isn’t a missing r). ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/71 "2015-07-08T03:13:26Z")
[QUOTE=Senegoid] Telling all the creditors to go take a hike probably means they’re on the way out of the Euro, but at least offers them a glimpse of a possible light at the end of the tunnel, which may still be years away after much tribulation. The alternative would have been to be stuck in the austerity hell they are in, indefinitely. He suggests that dropping out of the Euro is probably the least awful option they have. [/QUOTE] This is something a lot of people don’t realize. After a while, the endless string of bailouts starts to look like economic slavery, a tool the rich nations use to keep the poor nations subservient. Once you realize that, the pro-default attitude becomes much easier to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/72 "2015-07-08T03:49:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > (bolding mine) I assume you realize how that could be seen as bad portent by those who speak English? I speak English, **BigT**. Why could it be seen as a bad portent? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/73 "2015-07-08T04:06:41Z")
Baloney - meaning ‘bullshit’, having its origins from Bologna, supposedly. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/74 "2015-07-08T04:46:01Z")
Part of the argument that the creditors are at least in part to blame for the crisis is that you “can’t have irresponsible borrowing without irresponsible lending”. Well, it seems that now that the creditors don’t want to engage in such irresponsible lending anymore, they’re terrorists, and enslaving the Greeks. Can’t have it both ways. Also, the analogy with The German post WWII debt forgiveness is flawed. It happened only once. Germany could be relied upon to pay back the remainder of the debt because they had (the makings of) a strong exporting economy. And the Germans accepted the pro market reforms that came attached with the 1953 London agreement. Greece has been called the richest country that doesn’t make anything. It got that way in part by cooking the books and thereby becoming part of the Eurozone, and borrowing money it couldn’t really re-pay - spending it in ways that didn’t do much to build a real economy. I believe that since its independence in the early 19 th century, Greece has been in some form of default for about half that time. Most of that time cannot be blamed on the Euro since it is only 16 years old, and Greece has only been in it for 14. Greece did not join the Euro at its inception because it couldn’t qualify. 2 years later it was allowed to join ( after -surprise!-an austerity program and deep public spending cuts), but was warned that it still had a lot to do improve its economy (per Wim Duisenberg, prez of the ECB at the time). Looks like they only pretended to do that. I think it’s clear that the Euro concept was entirely too far reaching, and that Greece never was an appropriate candidate for it. On the other hand, on the face of it neither were Spain an Portugal, and it looks like they may actually pull it off… So it was a worthy attempt. Just didn’t work out for Greece. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/75 "2015-07-08T04:51:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In retrospect, Germany and the IMF made a mistake by bailing out the banks who made the loans in the first place. They should have been forced to either absorb the losses by the default of Greece, or agree to restructuring that Greece could keep up with. It is the whole moral hazard issue; privatize the profit an socialize the losses is bad for everybody but the stockholders of the banks. Let the banks fail, and new banks will take their place. On Twitter: \*\*The smartest trick the devil ever pulled was making the German voters think the bank bailout was a Greece bailout. \*\* Here’s how he did it: [Behind the scenes at the IMF on a fateful day in the Greek crisis](https://www.cigionline.org/blogs/global-economy/behind-scenes-imf-fateful-day-greek-crisis) > [@](#): > > Unsurprisingly to his colleagues, the most caustic comments came from Paulo Nogueira Batista, a Brazilian with swept-back salt-and-pepper hair who was the board’s most outspoken detractor of the Fund’s governance. Characteristically, his attack on the Greek program dispensed with the diplomatic niceties favored by his board allies; he used the term “Panglossian” to describe the staff report’s projection of a V-shaped recovery. “We fear that growth may follow an L-shaped pattern, with a very sharp contraction of GDP in 2010 and 2011 and negligible recovery thereafter,” he said. **The program, he continued, "may be seen not as a rescue of Greece, which will have to undergo a wrenching adjustment, but as a bailout of Greece’s private debt holders, mainly European financial institutions.”** ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/76 "2015-07-08T04:53:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And the dope fights ignorance so I think the readers got my point too. > > The concept of a European country not being in the EU or using the Euro is relevant to the discussion. Norway does neither, Switzerland does neither. > 10 E.U. countries don’t use the euro and I would have corrected that as well. > > I think in a discussion about what happens to Greece, such points of fact matter. For a few million Euros, you can build a tiny bridge and get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/77 "2015-07-08T04:55:22Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > Here is a reader from Norway and I really didn’t get your point. And **Novelty Bobble’s** point is quite relevant. Oh, Norway, a tiny sliver of ice covered fiords that got lucky because it hit oil. I’ve heard of you. Somewhere next to Sweden and near Denmark, right? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/78 "2015-07-08T05:20:12Z")
I applaud the wisdom of the Greek people. They have suffered 20%+ unemployment since the beginning of the financial crisis: continued austerity _guaranteed_ more of the same. Only a credulous moron would stick with current policies. Here’s a hint: _stop hitting your head with a mallet_. It hurts! Oh but what about that debt? Well the Germans restructured massive debt away after WWII. In 1953 they signed an agreement cutting their debt effectively in half. That’s right: half. [Germans Forget Postwar History Lesson on Debt Relief in Greece Crisis - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) Eduardo Porter: “The recurring, historical pattern? Major debt overhangs are only solved after deep write-downs of the debt’s face value. The longer it takes for the debt to be cut, the bigger the necessary write-down will turn out to be.” Don’t like it? Tough. That’s why lenders need to practice due diligence, rather than throwing other people’s money at any bozo offering a couple of dozen basis points in additional yield. Yay Greece! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/79 "2015-07-08T06:59:45Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > For a few million Euros, you can build a tiny bridge and get over yourself. I know this is the pit but you don’t _have_ to take everything as an insult. I was nothing but civil and factual in my reply. You made a simple mistake and were corrected. I’ve had discussions before with people ignorant of Norway’s relationship with the EU and the euro so best to correct an error at source. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/80 "2015-07-08T07:28:48Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Baloney - meaning ‘bullshit’, having its origins from Bologna, supposedly. Except only Americans pronounce Bologna as Baloney or use it to mean bullshit. So BigT’s claim that this applies to “those who speak English” is unfortunately blatantly wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353.md?page=5)