# Greece voted against the bailout. F\*\*\* Them. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353 "2015-07-05T22:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/161 "2015-07-12T04:16:55Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Watching the vote on a friend’s BBC, I was struck by the fact that always the MSM speaks as if we were tiny kids, and never goes into specifics about what exact measures are done/proposed or the effects of so doing. Plus the fact that those who voted No would include most of the poor, and that there would have been a lot more poor thanks to the previous austerity measures. > > So I looked it up on Wikipedia, suitable for a non-economist, and the Greeks have had 7 Austerity Packages. Including the rape of privatization, and pension cuts, and lower government pay. I dunno how much more can be cut. — Most of the profits from their sacrifices go to the banks. > > **[Greek government-debt crisis countermeasures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis_countermeasures)** > > [Each Austerity Package has it’s own page unfortunately.] > > Main: > > **[Greek government-debt crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis)** > [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Thank you for this. The Greeks keep restructuring and cutting and restructuring and cutting, and their ability to pay of the debt gets worse and worse each time. It’s clear the people pushing these austerity packages are incompetent (or maybe they have another agenda than getting paid back). And there are a bunch of people in this thread acting as if the Greeks haven’t done anything at all. Thanks to both of you for your posts and info in this thread. In case anyone is interested, [here is a blog site](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/), written by a Greek citizen in English, with first hand accounts, and translations of Greek news media reports. Some highlights: [Survey: Greek households trapped between poverty and debts](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/01/14/survey-greek-households-trapped-between-poverty-and-debts/) [Greek Health Minister: “Cancer is not urgent unless in final stages”](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2014/02/27/greek-health-minister-cancer-is-not-urgent-unless-in-final-stages/) [Thessaloniki: 6 uninsured Kidney patients have died, 18 wandering like ghosts from hospital to hospital for dialysis](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/06/08/thessaloniki-6-uninsured-kidney-patients-have-died-18-wandering-like-ghosts-from-hospital-to-hospital-for-dialysis/) [Greece 2013: Seeking cooking oil in garbage bin](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/02/18/greece-2013-seeking-cooking-oil-in-garbage-bin/) [Greece-EU 2011: Parents Give Up Their Children Because They Can’t Feed Them](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2011/11/20/greece-eu-2011-parents-give-up-their-children-because-they-cant-feed-them/) [Electricity prices in Greece soar 60% amid economic crisis](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2014/10/31/electricity-prices-in-greece-soar-60-amid-economic-crisis/) [Germany, France & Holland Sold Greece €1 billion of Arms Amid Debt-Crisis](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/03/07/germany-france-holland-sold-greece-e1-billion-of-arms-amid-debt-crisis/) [Overtaxing Greeks: freelancers 42% tax; self-employed & businesses to pay 90% tax in advance!](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/05/23/overtaxing-greeks-freelancers-42-tax-self-employed-businesses-to-pay-90-tax-in-advance/) [Survey: 56% of Greek seniors are starving. No wonder when 32% pensioners receive below €500](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2014/02/04/survey-56-of-greek-seniors-are-starving-no-wonder-when-32-pensioners-receive-below-e500/) [One in four chronic-ill Greeks cut on food & electricity to buy medication](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/04/17/one-in-four-chronic-ill-greeks-cut-on-food-electricity-to-buy-medication/) [Minimum Wages: Greeks to Earn Less Than €3 Per Hour](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/02/14/minimum-wages-greeks-to-earn-less-than-e3-per-hour/) [Only 8% of Greece’s 1.27million jobless gets unemployment allowance](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2014/06/06/only-8-of-greeces-1-27million-jobless-gets-unemployment-allowance/) Perhaps this will help dispel some of the myths and bullshit memes about the Greeks, and give some of you an idea of what life is really like in Greece. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/162 "2015-07-12T04:18:20Z")
I want to go back to this wealth transfer argument. The lions share of the Greek debt is now owned either directly or indirectly by the ECB. Where did the ECB get the money to loan to Greece? They made a couple of entries into a computer and basically created money out of thin air. We’re not living in the days of gold-back currency. This is basically an accounting fiction at this point. Whether the Greeks pay back all the debt now or 100 years from now isn’t going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things from the ECB’s perspective. For them, this is all just moving around 1s and 0s on a computer. And let’s talk about restructuring while I’m here. The debts have already been restructured multiple times. Whatever original terms were on the loans with the original creditors are long gone. When we’re talking about restructuring at this point, we’re talking about swapping out one set of made up loan terms for another set of made up loan terms. And this is what people are complaining about. That the made up terms attached to an accounting fiction might be swapped out for another set of made up terms. You have two options. You can look at this situation and try and figure out a solution that helps the most number of people, including the Greeks. Or you can decide that the Greeks must suffer, even if that means that the ECB never gets the money they created out of thin air back. It’s not unreasonable to ask Greece for fiscal responsibility. What is unreasonable is demanding that the Greeks push their economy over a cliff and pretending this passes as fiscal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/163 "2015-07-12T04:25:26Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Brightnshiny, clearly reading for comprehension is not your strong suit, and your understanding of the situation is at best suspect (the idea that any restructuring of Greek debt would arrive at the same NPV is laughable and made me briefly think you were jesting). Oh, please. I think it’s pretty clear you had no idea of the concept of NPV before I brought it up. > [@](#): > > Ignorance combined with passion makes for poor discussion, so I see no point in further debating this with you, as you will only read what you want to read, and then respond by calling names. I’m sorry you had a bad experience in California a few years ago, hope things are better for you now. The only ignorant person here is you. > [@](#): > > Fuji, I have no morality angle here, other than this: My point is simply that lenders should have the ability to state terms for new loans, even if they are unpalatable to the borrower. The borrower has the option of not taking the loan, even if that has catastrophic consequences. The lender should not be forced to make the loan if they believe it will not be repaid, the borrower should not be forced to take the loan, even if that means defaulting on other, older loans, _and even if most of the lenders are countries rather than banks_ You realize nobody is forcing anybody to lend or take a loan at this point? What does this have to do with anything. That’s why they are in negotiations. This is nonsense, since nobody has proposed forcing anyone to lend (and who has the authority to force someone to lend?). Strawman nonsense. > [@](#): > > I believe the logical action for Greece is default to some, possibly very large, extent. This is screwing over the lenders of that debt. However, that is exactly what interest rates are for - they are a reward for the time value of money and the (typically very small) risk of default. The lenders severely misjudged the default risk(\*), and will bleed for it. Greece will suffer - default will mean very limited access to capital markets for some time. This suffering is not something the Greek people somehow deserve, it is a consequence of actions taken in the last 14 years, by Greeks and non-Greeks. I don’t wish this on the Greeks, and I don’t think it’s somehow right that they suffer. I do believe that past Greek governments had a large part in creating these issues, and that there is nothing wrong with pointing this out. I take issue with the notion that all this is somehow the result of the current reluctance to lend Greece on anything other than very restrictive terms - this mess was made over many years. Hey, dipshit. I listed a whole list of reasons that have brought us to the present day. Talk about reading comprehension problems. But, I do agree that Greece should just default (or unilaterally change the terms of the debt). So, why are you arguing with me if you think that’s what Greece should do? Why are you giving us lectures about “wealth transfers”? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/164 "2015-07-12T15:56:15Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I want to go back to this wealth transfer argument. The lions share of the Greek debt is now owned either directly or indirectly by the ECB. Where did the ECB get the money to loan to Greece? Germany, France, and the other creditor nations that are losing tens of billions Euro to prop up Greece. You think this bailout money is coming out of thin air? And the investment class throws Roulette dice to determine interest rates? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/165 "2015-07-12T16:48:43Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > You think this bailout money is coming out of thin air? Yeah, I do. The ECB will simply credit its account with X and then transfer X to Greece’s account. You think John Wayne is going to load up the stagecoach with a shit ton of Euros and drive it down to Greece? Now, it can be argued that creating that additional money will have effects on the Euro that will impact individual people, but it’s not like Germany is going to go to everyone and say “Your share is 4 euros, pony up!” ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/166 "2015-07-13T00:00:20Z")
Yeah, money is just numbers in a computer. Every once in a while, I really think there should be some kind of competency test at the polls. Ignorance should not be represented in public servants. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/167 "2015-07-13T01:06:11Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Yeah, money is just numbers in a computer. > > Every once in a while, I really think there should be some kind of competency test at the polls. > > Ignorance should not be represented in public servants. It’s online, so not sure of the tone here. Are you saying that money in a computer is less real than physical money? If so, on what do you base that belief? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/168 "2015-07-13T02:18:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I disagree. The current budget deficit is still a lot higher than any time before 2009. [Cite](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/federalbudgetprocess/a/Budget-Deficit-History.htm). And the Obama administration has repeatedly justified this by using 2009 as the point of comparison. Which is exactly the problem I was discussing. The US budgetary numbers are improving, which is why public discussion of the issue has been curbed. Here’s a link from 2013: [The federal budget deficit is shrinking rapidly…](http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/04/the-rapidly-shrinking-federal-deficit.html) There were actually nominal declines in outlays in the 2 years previous, for the first time since WWII. Here are the US federal budget deficits as a share of GDP according to the OECD. You can see the decline after the stimulus, something that conservatives claimed was laughably unlikely. 2008 -7.2 2009 -12.8 (peak: 1st year of Obama Admin.) 2010 -12.2 2011 -10.7 2012 -9.3 2013 -6.4 2014 -5.8 2015 -4.6 I admit this isn’t especially intuitive. But I think I’ve shown that temporary budget deficits are politically _plausible_. 4.6/12.8 = 36% after all. Italics included so that I can emphasize that the US is not Greece. Again, you are correct to distinguish between general principles which are relatively firm and political considerations which do matter. [http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/government-deficit\_gov-dfct-table-en](http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/government-deficit_gov-dfct-table-en) Finally, the Greek situation is one I very much hope to avoid in the US, which is why I oppose budget busting tax cuts in the face of pointless wars, public accounting nonsense in the form of dynamic scoring, as well as game playing with the full faith and credit of US debt. Seriously: third world style governance is something to steer clear of. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/169 "2015-07-13T10:34:41Z")
Yeah, they voted against the bailout and then, at the end of the day, accepted harsher terms! As I say [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=762152), Tsipras is nothing but a demagogue! ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/170 "2015-07-13T13:27:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Here are the US federal budget deficits as a share of GDP according to the OECD. You can see the decline after the stimulus, something that conservatives claimed was laughably unlikely. Since the stimulus was also deficit spending, of course the deficit declined when the stimulus spending stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/171 "2015-07-13T14:55:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Read the cite, dumbass. > > Regards, > Shodan I am looking at a chart of greek public debt and I do not see anything approaching a 50% haircut since the crisis began, dumbass. So can you point to something that shows German levels of loan forgiveness being extended to the Greeks, dumbass? > **[London Agreement on German External Debts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts)** > > The London Agreement on German External Debts, also known as the London Debt Agreement (German: Londoner Schuldenabkommen), was a debt relief treaty between the Federal Republic of Germany and creditor nations. The Agreement was signed in London on 27 February 1953, and came into force on 16 September 1953. > > On 24 May 1951, the US and UK Departments of Foreign Affairs respectively, informed the Allied Countries involved in the settlement, about a new arrangement regarding Germany's External D... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/172 "2015-07-13T14:58:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If austerity doesnt work, why did it work for Spain, Cyprus, Portugal and Ireland?:dubious: Why does chemotherapy work for a healthy young cancer patient in the early stages of cancer but not a 80 year old man in more advanced stages of cancer. Not all economies are equal. ---
**Author:** ![Curid1992](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Curid1992](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curid1992)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/173 "2015-07-13T17:03:56Z")
According to this link: [Greek bailout: Europe strikes deal after marathon talks](http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/12/news/economy/greece-bailout-europe-conditions/) as well as what I just heard on BBC Radio 2, it looks like Greece are going to be bailed out by the EU - yet again. Shouldn’t Greece be dealing with its own problems though, and not relying on other countries? 😕 :rolleyes: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/174 "2015-07-13T17:09:42Z")
> [@Curid1992](#): > > Shouldn’t Greece be dealing with its own problems though, and not relying on other countries? 😕 :rolleyes: :smack: The other countries decided it was not in their best interest to let Greece deal with it’s own problems. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/175 "2015-07-13T18:01:05Z")
> [@Curid1992](#): > > Shouldn’t Greece be dealing with its own problems though, and not relying on other countries? 😕 :rolleyes: :smack: As the saying goes, if you owe someone a thousand dollars, it’s your problem. If you owe them a million dollars, it’s their problem. When it’s into the hundreds of billions, it’s everybody’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/176 "2015-07-13T18:02:39Z")
Sounds like Greece is “Too Big to Fail”, and needs strict oversight. Which is what they’re apparently going to be getting … ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/177 "2015-07-13T18:25:09Z")
If part of the reason why Greece is in this mess is due to the sum of small, selfish mistakes they’ve made, how much money can be made up by reversing the gifts the government gave to its people? Has any austerity measure increased the retirement age, jailed tax cheats, and increased the work week? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/178 "2015-07-13T18:59:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If part of the reason why Greece is in this mess is due to the sum of small, selfish mistakes they’ve made, how much money can be made up by reversing the gifts the government gave to its people? Has any austerity measure increased the retirement age, jailed tax cheats, and increased the work week? Think about a failing restaurant. The first impulse is to cut costs-- switch to cheaper ingredients, fire a few staff members, and cut the lunch service. This will stem the hemorrhage of cash, but it rarely works as the restaurant becomes less and less attractive to customers as quality declines. Things like reduced hours or switching to frozen fish generally signals a restaurants impending doom. Consumer spending works in a similar way. In an economy, consumer spending is essential. When people buy lots of stuff, people start businesses to provide all that stuff, and those businesses employ people who now have lots of money to buy more stuff. When people feel insecure, they save their money and spend as little as possible. This means fewer jobs, which leads to even more insecurity and less spending. Eventually, nobody is employed because nobody is buying anything. That’s how you eventually end up in a recession or worse. You can’t save an economy by cutting it to the bone, just like you can’t save a restaurant by cutting quality. In a complex system, you need to find balance rather than economy. Corruption is not a moral failing. Every society has shown it can be spectacularly corrupt given the opportunity. Corruption is a leadership strategy- it keeps people in power, motivates public servants, and provides some kind of framework (however faulty) for a state to functions. As a leadership strategy, it’s not a great one, but for very weak governments it’s probably the best they can get. The real problem is probably in the weakness of the Greek government-- whatever it is that makes it so that they can only keep control with glorified handouts. I don’t know enough about Greece to know why that is, but there is some reason out there, and fixing that is the only way to make things work. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/179 "2015-07-13T20:06:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As the saying goes, if you owe someone a thousand dollars, it’s your problem. If you owe them a million dollars, it’s their problem. > > When it’s into the hundreds of billions, it’s everybody’s problem. Ah, but every crisis is really an opportunity, my friend ! That’s capitalism ! For example, in this case, you can… that is to say, people can… I’ll get back to you on this, but in the meantime stay positive, alright !? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353/180 "2015-07-13T20:16:23Z")
Greece is actually new to the Democracy system - the Republic was founded in 1975. The European political system, with lots of parties, can lead to horrible turn-over in governments. How many different administrations have they had in the last 15 years? If your planning horizon is only until the next election, you just might not be excited about long-term strategic planning. IOW: Take the money and run. Plunder and burn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greece-voted-against-the-bailout-f-them/724353.md?page=10)