# Greed vs Lust on Christmas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913 "2005-12-09T18:24:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/1 "2005-12-09T18:24:21Z")
So this guy created a Paris Hilton Christmas display. Which while tacky, I find kind of amusing. However, I am not really looking for the merits of a Paris Hilton display or not. What I want to discuss is a comment from the end of the article. [http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/09/paris.christmas.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/09/paris.christmas.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > Ron Raffonelli, 65, said he would be upset if his young grandchildren came to associate Christmas with naked woman. He’d prefer the kids to think of Santa Claus. Why is it more appropriate to teach children greed, rather than lust on Christmas? Erek ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/2 "2005-12-09T18:28:58Z")
Do we **have** to choose? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/3 "2005-12-09T18:31:23Z")
I think it’s sad that you think Santa=Greed. I like to think that Santa represents the home, and happiness, and joy, and a belief that people can get nice things. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/4 "2005-12-09T18:35:59Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I think it’s sad that you think Santa=Greed. > > I like to think that Santa represents the home, and happiness, and joy, **and a belief that people can get nice things.** Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up. I don’t synonymize Santa with Christmas the way you do. I think Christmas is about home and happiness and joy. Santa is just about stuff. Sure its a concept of generosity, but there is the reality to contend with. People ain’t pistol whipping one another for X-Boxes for no reason, they are doing it to make sure that Santa brings what the kid really really wants. Erek ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/5 "2005-12-09T18:37:24Z")
I think we should tell our children the truth: There really is a Santa Claus. And he really does know if you’ve been bad or good. And he has this really mean side nobody ever talks about. Good night! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/6 "2005-12-09T18:42:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do we **have** to choose? I guess it depends on \* where \* you hang the stockings with care. And whose stockings they are. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/7 "2005-12-09T18:45:18Z")
**BrainGlutton** Yeah, but children don’t want to know about Satan’s Clause, they wait until they are adults and contemplating suicide because they overspent trying to assuage the greed of the voracious host. And I don’t think we need to choose between Greed and Lust. Of course they are one and the same, both are an intense desire for something, it’s only what that is different. Unfortunately too many people give their greedy little monsters whatever they want, the kids that whine and plead and beg are the ones that get their parents to kill for their Roboraptor. At least the Roboraptor bites. However, its the kids that have the parents who are most likely to step on toes for an X-Box that are the ones who more desperately need the lump of coal. Erek ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/8 "2005-12-09T18:53:49Z")
Quote: Ron Raffonelli, 65, said he would be upset if his young grandchildren came to associate Christmas with naked woman. He’d prefer the kids to think of Santa Claus. (Oh, CNN editors: If you’re going to paraphrase someone, that’s a good opportunity to use correct grammar, not that your mosquito-on-crack mentality thought of that or anything). Nice Freudian slip, there, Mr. Raffonelli. She’s not actually naked in the display, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/9 "2005-12-09T19:00:09Z")
Can we choose others of the Seven Deadlies? Considering Christmas Dinner, maybe Gluttony would be more appropriate. Or Sloth. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/10 "2005-12-09T20:52:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why is it more appropriate to teach children greed, rather than lust on Christmas? This may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but Christmas is about **giving** , not receiving. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/11 "2005-12-09T21:11:28Z")
Didn’t the early church deliberately replace Saturnalia on the calender with Christmas? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/12 "2005-12-09T21:14:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but Christmas is about **giving** , not receiving. > > There’s a difference. As we say in the Church of the Subgenius, “The difference between Hell and Heaven is which end of the pitchfork you’re on!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/13 "2005-12-09T21:21:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Ron Raffonelli, 65, said he would be upset if his young grandchildren came to associate Christmas with naked woman. He’d prefer the kids to think of Santa Claus. > > Why is it more appropriate to teach children greed, rather than lust on Christmas? > > Erek Paris Hilton clothed =/= naked woman Paris Hilton =/= lust (at least in my book, she don’t - more sloth if anything) Santa Claus =/= Christmas Santa Claus =/= greed different type of decoration =/= teach Damn, this article is a worthless piece of fluff, why do an OP on it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/14 "2005-12-09T21:50:53Z")
> [@Slithy Tove](#): > > Didn’t the early church deliberately replace Saturnalia on the calender with Christmas? Maybe. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia:) > [@](#): > > It has been postulated that Christians in the fourth century assigned December 25th (the Winter Solstice on the Julian calendar) as Christ’s birthday (and thus Christmas) because pagans already observed this day as an holiday. This would sidestep the problem of eliminating an already popular holiday while Christianizing the population. The Romans also practiced many traditions similar to Christmas; specifically the “christmas tree”. The Romans often cut down evergreens and decorated them to pay homage to Saturn, the god of farming. This was to honor the fact that the evergreens remained alive during the harshness of winter. It was also traditional for Romans to exchange gifts during this holiday. These gifts were customarily made of silver, although nearly anything could be given as a gift for the occasion. Several epigrams by the poet Martial survive, seemingly crafted as riddling gift-tags for gifts of food. The medieval celebration of the Feast of Fools was another continuation of Saturnalia into the Christian era. > **[Christmas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#The_origins_of_Christmas:)** > > Christmas is an annual festival commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ, observed primarily on December 25\[a\] as a religious and cultural celebration by billions of people around the world. A feast central to the Christian liturgical year, it is preceded by the season of Advent or the Nativity Fast and initiates the season of Christmastide, which historically in the West lasts twelve days and culminates on Twelfth Night. Christmas Day is a public holiday in many countries,\[ The traditional Ch... > [@](#): > > Historians are unsure exactly when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity of Christ. Some scholars maintain that December 25 was only adopted in the 4th century as a Christian holiday by the Roman Emperor Constantine, to encourage a common religious festival for both Christians and Pagans. The majority opinion is that Constantine did not have such authority. Perusal of historical records indicates that the first mention of such a feast in Constantinople (Constantine’s own city, after all) was not until 379 AD, under Gregory Nazienzen. In Rome, it can only be confirmed to mention in a document from approximately 350 AD, but without any mention of sanction by Emperor Constantine. > > Early Christians celebrated more the subsequent Epiphany, when the baby Jesus was visited by the Magi (and this is still a primary time for celebration in Spain). Efforts to assign a date for his birth, though better known from writings from some centuries later, would have been important to all Christians then, no less than now. > > The Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, each year beginning on December 17 in a festival called the Saturnalia. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter solstice, which at that time fell on December 25 (today, following calendar reform, it falls on December 21). During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, exchanged gifts, and temporarily freed their slaves. With the lengthening of daylight, these and other winter festivities continued through January 1, the festival of Kalends, when Romans marked the day of the new moon and the first day of the month and religious year (the secular year began in March). > > By the 4th century another factor was also at work. Many Romans also celebrated the solstice on December 25 with festivities in honor of the rebirth of Sol Invictus, the “Invincible Sun God”, or with rituals to glorify Mithra, the ancient Persian god of light (see Mithraism). Sol Invictus was a religion to which both Constantine himself before his confession of Christianity, and his predecessor Diocletian, who had rebuilt the Roman Empire, were especially devoted, and to whom the latter had attributed his military successes (though Constantine saw Christ as having delivered him from the former Roman order’s designs: Diocletian at one time had had Constantine living under his eye, against his will, separating him from his father). Constantine is therefore assumed to have found it convenient to find a common major festival for both Sol Invictus and Christianity. There is no actual evidence beyond this chain of assumptions that the holiday was actually instituted by the Emperor. Indeed, all extant evidence indicates that it was generally adopted decades after his death in most parts of the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/15 "2005-12-09T23:12:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but Christmas is about **giving** , not receiving. > > There’s a difference. I could be wrong, but I’m guessing there was some contemplation of Paris giving something to a sugarplum. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/16 "2005-12-09T23:14:44Z")
Midwinter, midsummer, and the equinoxes have been festivals in Eurasia since time immemorial. Saturnalia / Christmas, Easter / Lupercalia, it’s the same difference: newer religions co-opt older ones. The autumn equinox has ever been the harvest festival. Christians have Lent, Moslems have Ramadan, the Babylonians had Tammuz. One can draw similarities between the classical Greek Persephone and the Hebrew Esther and the Babylonian Ishtar and thus midwinter and the giving of gifts. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/17 "2005-12-09T23:18:28Z")
I’m too full o’ sloth to give a fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greed-vs-lust-on-christmas/334913/18 "2005-12-09T23:29:34Z")
“I’m very well acquainted with the seven deadly sins I keep a busy schedule trying to fit them in I’m proud to be a glutton and I don’t have time for sloth I’m greedy and I’m angry and I don’t care who I cross” Warren Zevon, “Mr. Bad Example”