Greedy lawyers, shame on you!

Sorry Unc, when I hit “Post Reply” you had not yet weighed in.

All I meant by that part of my post was that it is absurd to blame an entire group of people for the actions of an individual.

Yes, there are evil, greedy lawyers. There are also saintly, selfless lawyers. There are tall ones, short ones, amoral ones, self-righteous ones and on and on.

Blaming the acts of one individual (which may or may not be evil) on the entire legal profession is as absurd as blaming the acts of a single psychotic on all computer programmers.

OK, Frank, you are right. I got emotional and unfair. I apologize. And personally to you, if you are one of them lawyers. I wish I knew the English word for that group of lawyers I meant. Jerks? I am not sure everyone would understood. So, may I suggest lawjerks?
Uncle, that could not be construed as affront, it’s only a suggestion.

Peace

Moderator’s Notes:

Peace, as you can see, I’ve deleted your stereotyped and venomous garbage above. I’m fairly certain you weren’t seriously advocating the murder of a group of people. But … as you can, or should be able to, see, public comments of this type have repercussions. While those repercussions are generally pretty mild here at the SDMB, that’s not always the case out in the cold cruel world. Here’s some advice for you from your moderately wise old uncle. I strongly recommend you consider the merits of your opinions, your potential audience, and the possible interpretations that audience might make of your views, before opening your cakehole again.

I hope you’ve learned some small lesson here today.

And for the record, yes, your point is moot. Here’s a story that quotes the primary object of your scorn, Peter Angelos. He says, “We have not at this time reached a decision to file suit against any company in the wireless phone industry, whether manufacturer, distributor or service provider, “ and “Any stories about our intentions to bring suit against specific companies are presently speculative, if not incorrect.” Here’s a link: http://www.msnbc.com/news/508783.asp?0cm=c10

Uncle, no hard feelings. You did what you had to. I’ll be more careful in the future.
As many of these lawyer are Jewish ,an appeal to kill them would be tantamount to a ‘pogrom’.
I read your link. Surprisingly, they both (yours and mine) are dated Dec29. So, I do not know who goofed, I saw mine in the morning; it was from Reuters, not a sleazy XYZ News service. What can I say? Perhaps, he read my post and made a new statement?
Peace

Glad to see that somebody offered a serious reply to Bricker’s request for an alternative system. Sorry, peace, but just dictating that cell phones don’t cause cancer does nothing to improve the way the courts function.

I’ll take ob’s suggestions in order:

(a) I agree that jury selection should definitely be improved. It is far too easy for anyone with half a brain to get out of it, meaning that jurors mainly consist of retirees and the underemployed. However, please bear in mind that causation is only one of many issues in this potential cell phone case, and epidemiologists are no better trained than anyone else to decide those other issues. That’s why a cross-section of the community probably works better overall than creating a panel of wise men.

(b) The adversarial system certainly encourages the use of the most favorable expert testimony, but why is that automatically the least competent testimony? Methinks you overstate your argument. BTW, courts have been seriously tightening the standards for expert testimony in the last 6-7 years.

© Yes, it would be nice to wait five, ten, or twenty years until all the data is in. Science can afford to wait that long to find a definitive answer. But people with brain tumors–whether caused by cell phones or not–do not have the option of an indefinite wait.

(d) Sorry, I don’t understand the point here. Could you help me out with an explanation?

And personally, I think Merrell Dow should have stuck it out a bit longer rather than agreeing to that gigantic settlement just when it was becoming perfectly clear that silicon breast implants were not responsible for those illnesses. The cell phone industry, however, is far bigger than one pharmaceutical company, and the evidence right now is pretty solid that there is no link between cell phones and brain cancer. In light of that, I think the only thing you need to worry about with Peter Angelos is that he will continue to run the Baltimore Orioles into the ground.

BTW, waterj2, the products liability system in this country no longer requires the plaintiff to prove negligence. It’s a strict liability system, except when it comes to allegedly defective designs. If Coca Cola accidentally fills a bottle with syrupy cyanide, they’re liable for any injuries no matter how many precautions they took to prevent that from happening.

Anti-semitic stereotyping, peace? And to think, I was under the impression you were merely regarded around here as illogical, inconsistent, and badly informed, not outright bigoted. <sigh>

Great Philosopher, just off topic here, but I think you’ll have to duke it out with my husband who has already declared himself Grand Poohbah and Supreme Dictator. His armies are preparing themselves as we speak.

Anti-semitic? No- get the hell off your high horse.

Incredibly stupid? Yep.

jb

So you say.

Why does this make me think you are somewhat less than contrite with your apology? By the way, it’s not me you owe an apology to, it’s that group you’ve insulted. Sheesh. Didn’t you just get slapped for posting stupid stereotypes? And now you’ve gone from simple general foolishness to outright willful racial ignorance. Don’t you think at all, man?

It ain’t that far off target. Peace says he hates lawyers, then goes out of his way to point out that a lot of them are Jewish? How very open-minded of him.

UncleBeer, my apologies. I’ll be taking anything else peace-related over to the various options in the Pit.

Do you ever let facts get in your way, peace?

We’ve beat the McDonalds coffee deal to death on this board, so I won’t drag it up, again, except to point out that you probably have no idea regarding the facts of the case.

As to the tobacco companies:
-The earliest evidence associating smoking and cancer (to say nothing of athsma, emphysema, heart disease, and a host of other problems), is over 70 years old–long before any current officers of the tobacco companies were born.

  • The U.S. Surgeon General determined that there was a demonstrable cause/effect relationship almost 40 years ago.
  • The tobacco companies used flawed studies to deny the connection for many years, despite the fact that they knew both that the cause/effect situation and the addictive properties of nicotine well over 30 years ago. (This information came to light when tobacco company records were produced during lawsuits.)
  • Several tobacco companies actually worked to develop nicotine products that were stronger (and more addictive) after connection between nicotine and disease had been firmly established. (Another minor point discovered in tobacco company documents as a result of lawsuits.)
  • Tobacco companies deliberately targeted teen (and preteen) demographics in their advertising with the intention of hooking kids on their (known to be) addictive products. (One more fact found in tobacco company documentation brought to light during lawsuit discovery.)

So your claim that the tobacco companies “did not know” might have been accurate in 1870, but is either a lie or is unhealthy and willful ignorance by 1970.
Your claim that the tobacco companies “never forced” anyone to buy their products is, at best, disingenuous when compared against what they did do to create and maintain a market after the connections to disease and the knowledge of addiction were known.

hmmmm. . . You have mentioned various “scientific” projects and “studies” in which you have purportedly been involved. It would be interesting to discover that your first language was Cuban Spanish and that you have been working for R J Reynolds for the last 30 years. < eg >

I really hope that one of the other Aussies on this board still has their copy of the “Good Weekend” supplement from the Sydney Morning Herald of a couple of weeks ago : it isn’t available online, but it quotes several studies (including one funded by Telstra - our largest telco) which suggest that there is reason to be concerned about the impact cellular phones can have on health. I’m actually going to ring the SMH and see if I can get a link to this research, because the article was extremely coherently written and pointed out a couple of flaws in the original research which supposedly “proved” that there is no correlation between brain tumours and the EMFs produced by cellular telephones.

I am not saying that the research is “right”, but I would be very interested in hearing the opinions of the people on this board who are far more qualified than I am about why one particularly study is more valid than another (sorry - that sounded like a troll comment, I didn’t mean it that way).

IIRC, Britain has actually passed laws restricting the sale of cellular phones to minors; Disney has withdrawn merchandising rights previously granted to cellular phone companies because health concerns. Our own Departments of Health (we have both state and federal ones) are taking this issue seriously enough that they are recommending children using cellular phones should use the “hands free” option rather than holding the phone against their head.

Possibly in 10 or 20 years time we will have a definitive answer about the safety of cell phones, in the meantime however, I would much rather our regulatory authorities err on the side of caution. (part of the reason I would rather they err on the side of caution is because of the thalidomide and DES disasters which happened in this country because there wasn’t adequate “proof” those drugs were detrimental).

And peace, I didn’t think that even you would stoop low enough to make inflammatory, racist remarks on this board just because other people disagree with your opinion. I would have thought that if anyone on this board would refrain from those kinds of comments, it would be you - who admit that English is not your first language. It takes a lot to shock me peace, but your remarks relating to Jewish people have set a new benchmark for offensiveness on this board.

If you wanted to make the statement “I think we as a society have become too willing to sue anyone and everyone”, then I think that many posters on this board would have agreed with you. If you’d only kept to the original topic, then perhaps many posters would also have agreed with you. But you don’t seriously think you can make the kind of racist, bigoted comments you consistently make on this board and people won’t call you on it - do you?

It’s a good thing this isn’t the Pit, 'cos if it was I would feel compelled to use the “w” word.

BTW - and OT : I am extremely impressed by the moderation of this thread. I’d hate to have your job at this point in time unca.

minty green, you are right and I was wrong. p.s.- high horse was used mainly for alliteration

reprise- hell, why not start another Pit Thread?
jb

Well, my friend Jamesey-baby gets checks from the fed every once in a while for the tumor on his forehead (not caused by cell phones, mind you). So, I’d imagine some skin cancer patients would get checks from Social Security or something like that.

Peace isn’t a native English speaker? What’s your 1st language, may I ask out of curiosity?

First, the disclosure - I am a graduate of law school, but I am not a practicing attorney.

There are in fact, many people in our society that misuse the law for their own personal gain. Some of these people are lawyers. Most of them, however, are clients of lawyers who are everyday people and not lawyers themselves. Some lawyers take questionable cases. Where, as a lawyer, do you draw the line that your client does or does not have a valid case?

Say you’re an attorney and someone comes into your office with many thousands of dollars in medical expenses. This person has terminal cancer and is going to die. The cancer appeared in the right hand side of their brain and is located in the immediate region where the antenna of their cellphone lies closest to the head when in use. There is no history of brain cancer in this person’s family. The person has been a businessman in New York for 20 years and was an early adopter of cell phones.

Does this person have a case against the manufacturer of the cell phone? More importantly, does this person have the right to have the case tried in court?

If not, why not?

Now, consider this set of facts. A young man is driving his high-school graduation present. He is involved in an accident where another driver runs into the back of his car going 25 miles an hour. This is an accident that he should have been able to walk away from. Instead, his car explodes in flames and he suffers burns across 80% of his body. He is hospitalized and lingers for several months while his girlfriend and parents watch him slowly and agonizingly die. Yes, this is the Ford Pinto case.

Now, did these people have a right to sue Ford?

What I believe is the key point here is that if Ford was never sued, the Pinto defect would not have been discovered. Ford knew of the defect and decided not to do a recall because their cost/benefit analysis showed that it would be cheaper to just buy off the likely number of victims. This cost/benefit analysis would not have been discovered if the parents of the person injured had taken Ford’s settlement.

Who’s to say that the same thing isn’t happening with cell phones? Are any of you confident that Motorolla, Nokia, Samsung, etc. haven’t been quietly buying off victims for the past few years? Do you trust corporations with your health and/or life?

My biggest problem isn’t the complaints about lawyers who misuse the law. It’s the blanket statement that our society would be much better off without them.

Here are some examples where lawyers have done (arguably)great service to society with defective product lawsuits:

Agent Orange - used to be commercially available in the US.

DDT

The Pinto and Corvair

Dalkon Shield

Exploding Coke bottles (A case from 1944 where CocaCola tested brand new bottles for their ability to withstand the pressure but did not do so with recycled bottles. A bottle that had become weakened with re-use burst in a waitresses hand when she picked it up. The glass lacerated her arm, severing nerves which resulted in the loss of use of her hand.)

Non-flame retardent sleepware for children.

Lead paint.

Asbestos.

Many, many cases regarding dangerous and defective machinery.

As an aside, Firestone tires. These defects and recall wouldn’t have been without the legal history of defective product cases.

I could go on, but you get the point and I’m sure that with some thought, can come up with your own examples.

Now, one thing that very few people discuss regarding this topic is the public policy reasons behind the current state of tort law. Why does tort law exist in our society? Why has it developed to the point where we are today? Roughly (based on 6 year old 1L memory) the policy reasons are:

  1. Manufacturers of products make a profit (or hope to). They stand to benefit from the sale of their products, therefore it is reasonable to make them responsible for any damage caused by their products.

  2. If the manufacturer of a product is not held responsible for damage caused, then the government will have to step in and bear the cost. The cost must be borne by some party, otherwise people injured by defective products will be left to die in the streets or fend for themselves if they are disabled.

  3. Knowing this, manufacturers will build in the anticipated costs of resulting damages to the price of their products. This cost will then be spread out and borne by the people who purchase the product. The assumption is that this is reasonable and fair. It also rewards careful manufacturers who test and correct defects before releasing products to market and penalizes those out to make a quick buck.

Now, I am not sure if current tort law is the best way to allocate such costs through society. There are obviously other ways to do so. For example, our public policy could be complete caveat emptor. Each individual would be responsible for obtaining insurance (or not) to provide for them and their family in the event that they are injured by a defective product. The point is, however, that such costs do exist in a modern society. How to allocate them is really the issue. I’d be interested to hear other ideas or what people think on this subject.

As for the McDonald’s case…I’m new to SDMB, and this may have been discussed before. Most people quoting the McDonald’s case do not know the actual facts of the case or why McDonald’s had to pay so much. Basically, the particular McDonalds where the woman was burned had a history of complaints from customers who were burned. This put McDonalds on notice that they had a problem. The woman’s burns were quite severe. Severe burns + prior notice = high punitive damages to punish McDonalds for not fixing the problem.

Now, my post probably sounds like I’m an apologist for the legal profession. Truth be known, I am not happy with the current state of tort law. I think that reform needs to happen. Having said that, however, I do realize the value that tort law plays in our society. I just think that it is currently a bit out of balance.

But then again, what do I know? I’m a mental patient. :smiley:

MINTY GREEN, you and logic are so far apart, that I knew you were a lawyer even before I looked up your profile. I have to answer your points though for the benefit of innocent SDoppers.

MINTY GREEN epidemiologists are no better trained than anyone else to decide those other issues. That’s why a cross-section of the community probably works better overall than creating a panel of wise men.
Epidemiologists ARE better trained. Your “wise men” do not know statistics, nor how to collect data.

BTW, courts have been seriously tightening the standards for expert testimony in the last 6-7 years.
In this country, the “courts” are run by the lawyers, if the courts do something, it is because it is advantageous to the lawyers.

**Science can afford to wait that long to find a definitive answer. But people with brain tumors–whether caused by cell phones or not–do not have the option of an indefinite wait. ** You do better that even most lawyers. So, what do you suggest? Fuck the slow tumors, I need the money now, let’s sue today? How people can have tumors before they develop?

As many of these lawyer are Jewish ,an appeal to kill them would be tantamount to a ‘pogrom’.
MINTY GREENIt ain’t that far off target. Peace says he hates lawyers, then goes out of his way to point out that a lot of them are Jewish? How very open-minded of him. **
No, Uncle, you might be anti-Semitic, or at least stereotypic. If I hate somebody, I may call them jerks, rascals, etc. I do not call them “Jews” or any other ethnic names. Besides, any profession can take pride, if its members are called “Jews”. As far as I know, Jews were never accused of being bad workers, in any occupation (tax collection is the only exception I can think of). So, it could be construed as a compliment. Having said all that, I realized that I should have put an :slight_smile: there, because I said it tongue-in-cheek.
TOM-The earliest evidence associating smoking and cancer (to say nothing of athsma, emphysema, heart disease, and a host of other problems), is over 70 years old–long before any current officers of the tobacco companies were born.
they did do to create and maintain a market after the connections to disease and the knowledge of addiction were known.

First articles connecting cancer and cigarette smoking appeared in the early ‘50s. I say ‘first’: I realize that something might have been published before the war, but the ‘cancer scientific community’ became aware of possible epidemiologicalconnection in the ‘50s.
In general, I am not a smoker and do not defend tobacco companies at large; just try to keep the perspective.
REPRISE
Possibly in 10 or 20 years time we will have a definitive answer about the safety of cell phones, in the meantime however, I would much rather our regulatory authorities err on the side of caution.**
Fair enough. But now we already have at least 10 years of wide cellphone experience. If there were ANY increase in brain tumors worldwide (considering much higher radiation level of early phones), it would have been already noticed.

If you wanted to make the statement “I think we as a society have become too willing to sue anyone and everyone”, then I think that many posters on this board would have agreed with you. If you’d only kept to the original topic, then perhaps many posters would also have agreed with you.
Actually, that was my intention. I exaggerated a bit, added some poison to make my point and to attract attention. I would like to know this: Considering the highest per capita density of lawyers in America, how bad the situation is in Australia? I’ve heard that it is better in UK, because there the losing party must pay the court costs, so they think twice before bringing the suit. What about Australia? And elsewhere?

Peace

Peace, peace, peace. Your bait, unappetizing as it was to begin with, has been offered too many times to warrant a second glance. Please troll elsewhere so that the rest of us may have an intelligent conversation.

Crack’dOff, thanks for your contribution. I guess I was approaching it from a theoretical angle, whereas your concrete examples made the point a lot more clearly. I guess I’ve read so many products liability cases that the products themselves have all blurred together.

Crack: case#1 If not, why not? My God, another smart lawyer. Because cellphones do not cause brain tumors.

What I believe is the key point here is that if Ford was never sued, the Pinto defect would not have been discovered.
Lawyer’s logic. It would have been discovered. Later. Etc.

Who’s to say that the same thing isn’t happening with cell phones?
I. There is NOTHING in common.
I’ve said that I’ve darkened the colors. There are some good lawyers, but
I just think that it is currently a bit out of balance
Yes, sir. Do something, will you?

Peace

Peace, baby, you still haven’t answered my question as to what your original language was (or was this another cover-up you used to hide your inner idiocy?).