# Greek default seems to be inevitable...what's the fallout? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811 "2015-06-29T20:24:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/261 "2015-07-07T02:06:42Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Of course, the Greek government could define the Drachma as being worth whatever it wants them to be worth. Just as the USSR defined the Ruble as being worth 35 USD. > > Anything is worth whatever a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. > > The Ruble never sold for $35 - maybe 0.10 on a good day. Actually, AFAIR, around 1980 the official rate was 1 ruble to 4 dollars, while the black market rate was 4 rubles to 1 dollar. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/262 "2015-07-07T02:27:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Humor aside, I can see the point of insisting on structural reform in Greece. But that’s not really the status quo. Imagine a smoker gets into an auto collision. You want them to stop smoking so that they won’t return to the hospital in another two years. But they are bleeding. What to do? You apply tourniquets: you don’t withhold medical care. > > For the sake of argument (and consistent with my suspicions) let’s say that Greek governance is inadequate. The problem is that 80% budget cuts combined with an inability to depreciate your currency will lead to unemployment in _any_ country. Even if the Greeks did pension reform, etc., austerity policies would still destroy them. And I don’t see austerity being used as a threat so much as something that is being insisted upon. > > There are 2 viable situations. They are greater fiscal integration or monetary control. Over in the US we take option 1: the US routinely sends South Carolina $4-$5 for every dollar that it takes in. The US bailed out Florida and Nevada this recession via the FDIC. If the European core doesn’t want to do the same for the periphery, that’s ok, but they really shouldn’t share a currency. Back in the late 1990s the Germans were made aware of the problem, but they figured they could kick it down the road. And here we are. > > Another great link: Greek crisis: 11 people and institutions to blame [Greek crisis: 11 people and institutions to blame | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2015/7/6/8900659/greek-crisis-blame) > Fuck the European Central Bank, Europe’s private banks, European policy makers c. 2010, the current Greek government, the IMF, Finland, the Netherlands, Austria, Helmut Kohl, François Mitterand, Greece’s other political parties, Europe’s Social Democrats and of course the Germans. Fuck 'em all! 😃 > ETA: Yay Greece! Good link, and a really great video in there as well. I thought this was especially pertinent: > [@](#): > > Assessing credit risk is the primary job of a lender, and the people who loaned the money to Greece did an awful job of it. It’s particularly significant since: > [@](#): > > Right now Greece owes money to a variety of European countries and government institutions. But Greece originally got into such a terrible debt situation because it was borrowing money on private financial markets. In other words, a bunch of rich financial institutions did a really terrible job of what they’re supposed to do: asses the risk of a loan before making it. But then, instead of taking the hit for their own incompetence, they shifted the burden to their respective governments. Which, when you think about, means maybe they weren’t so incompetent after all. If you can depend on the government to bail you out (when you’re a big bank) there’s really no incentive _ **not** _ to make bad loans in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/263 "2015-07-07T02:31:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > There was a poster up thread who mentioned barter as well. I was watching a BBC video earlier (sorry, no link atm) about this and it’s already happening in some of the Greek cities and on several of the Greek islands. Barter is an easy method of tax evasion. I suspect it’s been more prevalent than acknowledged for some time. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/264 "2015-07-07T02:37:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Actually, AFAIR, around 1980 the official rate was 1 ruble to 4 dollars, while the black market rate was 4 rubles to 1 dollar. I don’t know. I visited the USSR in the summer of 89, and when I left the hotel kids were literally stuffing my pockets with rubles, in exchange for dollars. (The kids were about the same age as I was. I was 18.) Turns out it didn’t really matter much. There was literally nothing to buy with rubles. The stores that did have stuff (tourist stores) only accepted dollars. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/265 "2015-07-07T02:39:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It will be whatever the market dictates it should be. With the Greek Central Bank following the market diktat. No. In a country with its own currency, the central bank determines the interest rate, just like it does in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/266 "2015-07-07T03:11:33Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The economist Thomas Picketty is interviewed by _Die Zeit_ about Greek debt: a translation is available at [Medium](https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff). After due consideration the good professor concludes, and I paraphrase: Fuck those Germans. . Absolutely. Bite the hand that’s literally feeding you. Sounds like a solid financial plan going forward. I would note however that there are not a lot of calories in pride so there might be a few details to hammer out. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/267 "2015-07-07T03:44:53Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nitpick, but that’s untrue. Most countries _don’t_ print their own currency. It’s often printed in other countries for reason of economy of scale and technological know-how. And it’s not always central banks that are printing money. There are private companies in this business. > > I don’t know if it’s the case for Greece. It’s not a nitpick, and thank you for clarifying. I think I was confusing country codes and printing codes. But I checked again and see that even though most countries _do_ have printing facilities, they also commission Euros printed from facilities in other countries. According to [this site](http://www.ibiblio.org/theeuro/InformationWebsite.htm?http://www.ibiblio.org/theeuro/bnk.printcode.htm), the Greek printing facilities (in country) are nationalized. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/268 "2015-07-07T04:26:48Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > If Greece transitions to the drachma, the interest rate (for drachmas) will be whatever the Central Bank of Greece decides it to be, right? The central bank of Greece sets the money rates (1 year or less, say). Long term and medium term rates are set by the market. Though via the term structure of interest rate theory, the central bank can affect the long term rate somewhat. But does the central bank determine the shape and position of the entire yield curve? No. Although it might be interesting to see them try. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/269 "2015-07-07T05:29:12Z")
Vox: How Greece leaving the euro would actually work > **[How Greece leaving the euro would actually work](https://www.vox.com/2015/7/6/8901303/greek-crisis-grexit-how-it-works)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... ## I had wondered about that. > [@XT](#): > > I just didn’t think they should have been the number 2 on that list, but then I didn’t notice when I skimmed the article that it was ‘in no particular order’, and that a lot of especially left leaning Europeans (and Americans for that matter) put them at the top of any list. No worries. I wouldn’t put European banks near the top of the list of 11 either if I had to order them. ## As I see it, the underlying problem is that financial institutions understand diversification, but they don’t spend too much time thinking about correlated risks or once-every-five-year events. And why should they? If everybody gets egg on their face at the same time, it’s a who-coulda-known situation. Evading risks that turn sour once or twice a decade could imply below market returns during most years. That’s not a good career move even if it enhances returns over 5-15 year periods of time. A similar argument implies to those who assume Gaussian returns when they know that financial instruments don’t perform like that. One writer (Taleb) referred to this as ignoring black swans, but hell if they appear every 5-10 years you may as well call them white. I figured the Greek people were folded into their political parties, but I suppose you could expand the list to 12. I will say though that unlike the other 11, the Greek people have actually paid a serious price for failure to build a more functional civil society. I’d cut them at least that much slack. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/270 "2015-07-07T06:27:48Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I think popular German recalcitrance to lend any more money is predicated on the sentiment that there is widespread tax fraud and corruption in Greece. That’s driving the determination to enforce “austerity.” > In short, Germans do not think the Greek system behaves responsibly with the money they are given. The Germans are offended that Greek public transport has air conditioning, which, as northern Europeans, they see as a ridiculous frivolity. _This is the actual reason given by a German minister._ The problem, of course, is that Greece is not in northern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/271 "2015-07-07T07:11:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What does it mean to blame the Greek people? **XT** , are you specifically targeting wealthy Greeks who, rather than paying their taxes, spent the money on yachts? If the U.S.'s IRS were toothless do you think Americans would still pay their taxes? > > It is important to face a crisis like this with a clear mind about political and economic realities and _not treat it as a morality play_. This applies to both sides of the political spectrum of course; neither “Those rich bankers shouldn’t have been so greedy” nor “Those lower-class Greeks shouldn’t be so lazy” is useful. Instead, the task is to set _institutions_ on a proper path. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > The Germans are offended that Greek public transport has air conditioning, which, as northern Europeans, they see as a ridiculous frivolity. _This is the actual reason given by a German minister._ > > The problem, of course, is that Greece is not in northern Europe. As perviously mentioned, it is being presented to the German people in almost racist terms - the problem with ‘the Greeks’ is they are not more like us, they don’t have our values, they don’t work hard … their institutions, their culture, their ethics. Germany is actually doing Greece a oby sorting the country out, making it fit for purpose. Well, the referendum showed what working class and poor ‘Greeks’ thought of that. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/272 "2015-07-07T07:26:48Z")
Spite is a powerful, powerful motive. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/273 "2015-07-07T07:48:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The Germans are offended that Greek public transport has air conditioning, which, as northern Europeans, they see as a ridiculous frivolity. _This is the actual reason given by a German minister._ Do you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/274 "2015-07-07T08:22:33Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > “Greece – What You are not Being Told by the Media” > > [http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/](http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/) > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > That it’s all a vast conspiracy? Now, why would the media not tell us that? I know—another conspiracy! And if there are two conspiracies, _there must be a third_. Send $5 to Box 12345 and you’ll learn what it is. You’ll be shocked, but knowing the answer is key to your personal wealth and safety. As conspiracy theories go, this one’s pretty credible. Most if not all of what he describes actually happened, whether part of a fiendish master plan or not. It’s a lot closer to reality than the nonsense about ‘Greeks not collecting any taxes and begging for money from poor Latvians’ that I keep seeing, including on this very board. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/275 "2015-07-07T09:35:03Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? I do! And I was wrong, it was an unnamed pol but not a minister: > **[The week that Germany turned its back on Greece](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11718438/The-week-that-Germany-turned-its-back-on-Greece.html)** > > After trust between the two broke at a key moment, the Telegraph travels to Frankfurt and Berlin to ask those in the know what will – or should – happen next > [@](#): > > One CDU member who used to work with Mrs Merkel agrees. "[The announcement of the referendum] was the moment that things changed. Up until then we’d all agreed to work with the Greeks, support the Greeks, pay for the Greeks. All that was OK if they were willing to reform. Many Germans go to Greece to enjoy the culture, the food, the history. > “But they also go there and see what the government has wasted its money on. You see these huge air-conditioned Daimler buses which go to nowhere with just one passenger. We’ve all seen them.” This strikes me as like someone from Maine complaining about air-conditioned buses in Phoenix, and deserves that sort of scorn if not that level. (Obviously Greece is not actually as fatally hot as Arizona.) Now, the pol does go on: > [@](#): > > Many in Germany highlight that Greek people enjoy higher minimum wages and living standards than in other eurozone countries paying for their bailout or rescued themselves. The minimum wage, both in nominal terms and when adjusted for living costs, is higher in Greece compared with countries such as Portugal and Slovakia. > “How can [people in Slovakia] accept that they pay for higher minimum wages and higher pensions in Greece?” says Fuchs. > Merkel’s former aide adds: “We are all European. And we were prepared to work with them, but everything changed when they announced the referendum. The tone of dinner table conversations changed completely after that.” Um, OK, but the Telegraph has a helpful chart right next to this. At purchasing power parity, the ratio of the minimum wages of France:Germany:Greece:Slovakia is about 16:14:9:6. (And why base your judgments on minimum wage? Why not median income, or even mean, considering the high rate of unemployment? What kind of economic education do Christian Democrat pols in Germany have that they think this is key?) And most of the debt is held by _Germany and France._ This is a disingenuous argument. Even the Telegraph ain’t exactly buying it, son, and they’re Tories. But hey, CDU pol saw an air-conditioned bus with a single passenger once, so that entire spendthrift people must be punished. This is the level of the thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/276 "2015-07-07T11:03:59Z")
Personally, I’m in complete agreement with the Marxist wing of Syriza: > [@](#): > > The openly Marxist wing of Syriza would be more comfortable away from the constraints of the euro, able to renationalise key industries and assume direct control of the economy. Their champions include the belligerent speaker of parliament Zoe Konstantopoulou, who has used her position as a bully pulpit to successfully attack media critics and the independence of the central bank of Greece. Panagiotis Lafazanis, the energy minister, openly eschews the euro and resists creditors’ calls to break up the state power corporation. > **[Is Tsipras really looking for a deal with Europe? | Daniel Howden](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/syriza-failed-deal-greece-alexis-tsipras?CMP=share_btn_tw)** > > Despite the Greek leader’s rhetoric on social justice, he appears more intent on consolidating power than resolving this crisis Greeks should have total control about how they run their country and leave the eurozone. Germany should accept the fact that its share of the bailout money (about 90 billion Euros so far) is lost. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/277 "2015-07-07T11:28:06Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Personally, I’m in complete agreement with the Marxist wing of Syriza: > > [Is Tsipras really looking for a deal with Europe? | Daniel Howden | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/syriza-failed-deal-greece-alexis-tsipras?CMP=share_btn_tw) > > Greeks should have total control about how they run their country and leave the eurozone. Germany should accept the fact that its share of the bailout money (about 90 billion Euros so far) is lost. The trouble is this stuff falls between the _realpolitik_ and good old fashioned propaganda - it’s ideological indulgence. Syriza have to sell their position to the people. Totally. They have to be seen to e forced into doing whatever they do. That’s what most of this manoeuvring is about. So far, so good -almost 2/3 of those voting support either the political approach or the representation of the political approach. Talking of which isn’t this Armageddon day for those pusing the capitalist/moral narrative - Greek banks run out of liquidity, the economy grinds to a standstill - cue persioners crying outsde locked banks … ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/278 "2015-07-07T12:11:49Z")
One or two air conditioned buses? The whole transport system more like. A trains that was famously quoted by a Greek minister as employing so many people on such comfortable salaries that it would have been cheaper to send every passenger by taxi. > **[The Big Fat Greek Gravy Train: A special investigation into the EU-funded...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007949/The-Big-Fat-Greek-Gravy-Train-A-special-investigation-EU-funded-culture-greed-tax-evasion-scandalous-waste.html)** > > This week it was reported that every family in Britain could face a £14,000 bill to pay for Greece's self-inflicted financial crisis but Brussels insisted it would not need a contribution from Britain as it voted through a massive £100bn rescue... The country behaved like a teenager running amok with its parents credit card. Then throwing a tantrum when faced with the consequences of all the huge debts. It is easy to conclude that an appropriate outcome would be for Greece to exit the Euro and return to the Drachma. Then probably spend the next few decades scratching a living from tourism and selling fruit and veg. I think the Greeks are all too well aware of this. But can the EU afford to have a restive and unstable country on its southern border? It could have implications for the NATO and the balance of powers in the Mediterranean. Greece is also the most developed economy next to the Balkans. What effect will this have on Bulgaria, Romania and other countries in the region? Why did the EU countries and private banks lend so much money anyway? The creative accounting that justified Greece becoming part of the Euro was not a surprise. Any deep investigation would have revealed ‘inconsistencies’. My conclusion is that this was not about money. The Greek economy is not that big. But the political benefits of having Greece in the EU took precedent. I am sure that the aspiration was that Greece would eventually settle down and develop its institutions to encourage long term stability. This realpolitick has characterised a lot of EU expansion. Southern Eastern Europe from Greece going north the states are underdeveloped, with porous borders and politicians with the tendency towards kleptomania. Then there is, of course, Mr Putin in Russia, who sees the EU as a threat and would be quite keen to encourage instability if it is in Russias interest. There is a big geopolitical picture here. The Euro is a central part of the EU project to bind nations together economically, so their interests coincide. I don’t think the EU can afford to let Greece leave the Euro. On the other hand negotiating with the current crop of Greek politicians, who behave like a bunch of irresponsible university students, has not been productive. Germany has been ‘bad cop’. It may be time for the French to play the ‘good cop’, I think. I am sure there is a deal on the way. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/279 "2015-07-07T12:18:38Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But hey, CDU pol saw an air-conditioned bus with a single passenger once, so that entire spendthrift people must be punished. This is the level of the thinking? Wow, it’s like the Reagan “Welfare Queen” lie. That is impressively stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811/280 "2015-07-07T12:22:51Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s a lot closer to reality than the nonsense about ‘Greeks not collecting any taxes and begging for money from poor Latvians’ that I keep seeing, including on this very board. What nonsense? Greek tax collection is a disaster and both Latvia, Lithuania and Slovakia are poorer than Greece and have had to pay to Greek debt programs. Those are facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greek-default-seems-to-be-inevitable-whats-the-fallout/723811.md?page=15)