# Green New Deal: "Economic security for those unwilling to work"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [February 8, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189 "2019-02-08T17:53:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/41 "2019-02-08T21:48:36Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> Sheesh… there’s not a lot of convincing going on.
>
> This does feel very Groundhog Day-ish… I keep having to repeat myself- that’s not how it works. Wages are predominantly set as part of a labor market- labor is a “good” just like anything else, and like anything else, it’s sale price is set by the person selling it. If that good is not worth the price, then nobody buys, so the seller has to drop their price.
>
> In the case of low-wage workers, they don’t have skills and experience worth paying more for, and they’re easily replaceable. Hence the low pay- “if you won’t do the job for the pay I’m willing to pay, there are a dozen other people waiting who will.”
>
> That’s not the company being dicks; developing skills and experience (and hard work is definitely a skill) is the main way you differentiate yourself in the job market. Luck plays a large role as well, but as far as things you can control, that’s how you raise the perceived value of your labor. That’s why education is important- it’s a way to differentiate yourself. So are things like summer jobs, internships, etc… And stuff like criminal records also differentiate you, except negatively.
>
> I don’t doubt that some sort of UBI would increase wages for the remaining lowest wage workers- employers would have to raise wages just to compete with the option of being a sloth. But that’s only at the extreme low end; almost nobody making 50k is going to turn around and say “F\*\*k this 50k job, I want to go sit on my ass for 20k.” But it’s entirely likely that someone making 24k might say that. In the long run though, that’s going to drive automation even harder until we reach a point when everything that can be economically automated will be. Whether or not that point is a post-scarcity economy remains to be seen. It may just end up as a situation with widespread impoverished unemployment for most people, and a small “working” class that actually does jobs that can’t be automated.
The utility curve of money means that if you gave people a UBI, they would demand to be paid even more for the same work. $30K per year when you’re making zero looks a lot different than an additional $30K when you’re already getting a $25K UBI. If I absolutely need a job, and I can get one at Tim Horton’s for $25K per year and nothing else, well, I’ll take that job. But if I’m already getting $25K without working at all, doubling it to 50K at the expense of having to work every day is going to look a lot different.
And if you are going to means-test the UBI in any way, rather than sending a check every month to Jeff Bezos, there will come a point where the marginal taxation of income in your new job makes it even less appealing. If every dollar I earn over, say, $100K gets clawed back out of my UBI 1:1, guess what? I’ll never make more than $100K. And if you only claw it back at 50%, that’s essentially a 50% marginal tax on income over $100K, on top of whatever other income taxes I might have to pay.
Then you have the problem that at first, a lot of people might be seduced by the money to just lay around. Then later they might get restless and want to work, but they’ll find that their layoff from the job market makes them unemployable. Then they’ll be stuck with UBI with no prospects for better.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/42 "2019-02-08T21:53:12Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> Sheesh… there’s not a lot of convincing going on.
>
> This does feel very Groundhog Day-ish… I keep having to repeat myself- that’s not how it works. Wages are predominantly set as part of a labor market- labor is a “good” just like anything else, and like anything else, it’s sale price is set by the person selling it. If that good is not worth the price, then nobody buys, so the seller has to drop their price.
>
> In the case of low-wage workers, they don’t have skills and experience worth paying more for, and they’re easily replaceable. Hence the low pay- “if you won’t do the job for the pay I’m willing to pay, there are a dozen other people waiting who will.”
You say that because you have lived all your life in a world where the available labor pool is larger than the demand for labor. If that flipped around it would be a very different world.
After the Black Death swept through Europe wages rose because there was a chronic labor shortage for quite some time afterward - more labor was needed than was available. Of course, with technology labor shortages can also drive technology and automation.
In a world where people don’t HAVE to work then getting people to actually DO work that is needed might require an increase in wages for those jobs that still require humans as opposed to robots.
---
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/43 "2019-02-08T22:00:14Z")
> [@running\_coach](#):
>
> Care to explain? Do you really think the average MW worker is such a worthless piece of shit that they should be paid even less?
What do I think? I think in a so-called market economy price should be set by supply and demand and not counterproductive government fiat. There is no intrinsic dollar value to goods or services and that includes labor.
---
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/44 "2019-02-08T22:02:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Chronos, not everyone is a frustrated artist with an MFA working in an unsatisfying job. The vast majority of of people, if given a free income, will spend their time watching TV, surfing the net, drinking, smoking pot, or otherwise just chilling.
>
> I grew up in a welfare neighborhood, and I never saw anyone on welfare following their dreams to be an artist. I DID see a lot of people sitting around on sofas smoking, drinking, and watching TV.
>
> The idea that we will become a nation of artists and thinkers is ridiculous.
I grew up in a similar neighborhood and you are 100% correct. I think everyone who has such lofty ideas of humanity ought to live a few years in a very economically depressed area and see for themselves the reality of human nature.
---
### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/45 "2019-02-08T22:04:29Z")
Am I the only on who thinks “those unwilling to work” refers to stay-at-home moms & dads?
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### Author:  [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/46 "2019-02-08T22:29:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> So what? Of course we will have tech in the future that will be amazing. That says nothing at all about how people will be employed. Maybe 50 years from now the biggest growth industry will be virtual jobs in VR. I have no idea.
>
> What I do know is that until and if we can replace the human brain, human brains will be really valuable. And not just for the technical aspects of the job they are doing, but because when humans are in the job they can use judgement to correct errors, come up with workarounds, provide feedback to managers as to what’s going on at the lowest levels of the organization, etc. Ever seen what happens when a company’s employees go on a ‘work to rule’ strike? Usually, the entire process collapses, or at best becomes highly inefficient. That’s what would happen all the time if you replaced all your workers with specialized robots.
Ok so what seems to be happening here is that you are arguing against someone that is saying that everyone’s jobs will be replaced by robots and technology eventually. That isn’t me though. That is never what I’ve said.
I’m saying that technology is going to get us to the point where there simply isn’t enough work that needs to be done for everyone to have a job to do. The ones left out will be the low skilled people, manual laborers, heavy box movers, etc. For some people there will be nothing that they are qualified to do that needs doing anymore, so what do we have them do, dig a hole even though we have robots that do that just so that they can have a job? That’s what I meant by are we just going to create busy work.
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### Author:  [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/47 "2019-02-08T22:48:57Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> What do I think? I think in a so-called market economy price should be set by supply and demand and not counterproductive government fiat. There is no intrinsic dollar value to goods or services and that includes labor.
Human beings are not just a commodity like any other. They’re not oil or steel or electricity; they’re human beings.
Economies exist to serve the needs of people, not the other way around. Thinking of people as a commodity can lead to a very dark place.
I don’t have all of the answers and I don’t know if a UBI is a workable economic model but I do know that in a post-scarcity world it’s wrong to let market forces alone determine people’s fate.
---
### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/48 "2019-02-08T22:59:06Z")
> [@davidm](#):
>
> I don’t have all of the answers and I don’t know if a UBI is a workable economic model but I do know that in a post-scarcity world it’s wrong to let market forces alone determine people’s fate.
I don’t see why it’s either-or.
If anything, UBI is a way to make the labor market _more_ purely market-based.
With UBI, we can abolish minimum wage. Because the goal of minimum wage is to insure that everyone can make a living wage, and UBI already provides that.
UBI also can (and should) replace many of the benefits currently paid for by employers, such as pension, unemployment insurance, etc. Basically, UBI should mean each person’s basic needs are covered by the government, and the employer just needs to pay for the work done.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/49 "2019-02-08T23:18:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> And this was about the least crazy thing in the green new deal, which I would have flunked if it had been handed in as a grade 8 social studies assignment. My favorite is the plan to replace all air travel with high speed rail.
When you say ‘replace,’ what does the proposal actually say? And why is it so crazy?
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/50 "2019-02-08T23:22:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> When you say ‘replace,’ what does the proposal actually say? And why is it so crazy?
What it actually says is:
> [@](#):
>
> (H) overhauling transportation systems in the United States to remove pollution and greenhouse gas emissions from the transportation sector as much as is technologically feasible, including through investment in—
> (i) zero-emission vehicle infrastructure and manufacturing;
> (ii) clean, affordable, and accessible public transit; and
> (iii) high-speed rail
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/51 "2019-02-08T23:32:43Z")
> [@scr4](#):
>
> Am I the only on who thinks “those unwilling to work” refers to stay-at-home moms & dads?
Also those with physical disabilities, the mentally ill, those taking care of disabled family members, the old…
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/52 "2019-02-08T23:40:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Look, I’m not an AOC fan. I think she would be largely laughed at and disregarded if she were a poster on this message board. But if the topic is something like whether health care and affordable housing should be available to all Americans, or just those with jobs, I’m going to side with making that available to everyone. And I mean everyone.
And I’m not gonna laugh at her because she’s almost singlehandedly turned climate change into a top-tier issue for the first time since Obama’s cap-and-trade bill died in the Senate back in 2009.
I don’t know if her plan is the ideal pony plan, but I think it’s up to critics to come up with better plans. One point Atrios makes frequently is that we often don’t get a choice between the plan on the table and some ideal plan that’s in our heads; we usually get a choice between the plan on the table versus doing nothing.
In 2019, of course, whatever passes the House will run into a brick wall in the shape of a tortoise shell on the other side of the Capitol: there’s no way Mitch will allow the Senate to take up climate change legislation, no matter how good it is. So the rubber’s going to hit the road in January 2021, if ever. But in the meantime, it’s time for those who are concerned about climate change to either improve this plan, or present alternatives, so we can be ready for that moment when it gets here.
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### Author:  [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/53 "2019-02-08T23:42:23Z")
I love the immediate assumption by some when this first came out that the “unwilling to work” part is exactly, positively, abso-fucking-lutely what AOC wants, namely to support people on the government’s dime, even if they want to sit around on their sorry asses watching “Wheel of Fortune” reruns all day. In addition to the fact that it never occurred to them to read the resolution first, to consider that maybe, just maybe the “overview” misstated something, and to immediately have their biases confirmed that AOC is the dumbest person ever to set foot in a legislative forum in history.
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### Author:  [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/54 "2019-02-08T23:46:15Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> I thought the cow fart detail was humorous.
Oh, you mean you have a sense of humor? For some reason, I thought you were a Republican. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/55 "2019-02-08T23:49:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> The vast majority of of people, if given a free income, will spend their time watching TV, surfing the net, drinking, smoking pot, or otherwise just chilling.
Would your mom and dad have done that? Would you? If so, well, maybe you’re onto something. If not, why would you ever assume you have any idea what other people would do in the same situation?
---
### Author:  [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/56 "2019-02-08T23:58:46Z")
**Sam Stone** , to be clear, if you are talking about a million dollar income or the like, I might just agree. But if you are talking about a basic income covering just food and shelter, my question stands.
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### Author:  [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/57 "2019-02-09T00:08:40Z")
Christ …you guys are the reason Section 31 was created.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/58 "2019-02-09T00:57:21Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#):
>
> Would your mom and dad have done that? Would you? If so, well, maybe you’re onto something. If not, why would you ever assume you have any idea what other people would do in the same situation?
If you must know, my father left us when I was two, and spent his life mostly sitting on a barstool. He lived in a room in the Elk’s club. My mother worked her ass off, because that’s how she was raised. But we were one of very few families in the neighborhood who were not on welfare. Most of my friends had mothers on welfare, and they mostly sat around and smoked and talked with each other all day, if they weren’t parked in front of a TV watching their ‘stories’.
And I knew plenty of young men who didn’t work, or who only worked sporadically when they absolutely needed the money, then would blow off work for partying. Those are the ones I really worry about, because it was hard to live that way so most eventually figured out that they needed a career of some sort and straightened out. If they had had a UBI, that might not have happened.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/59 "2019-02-09T01:05:30Z")
Maybe this thread should be retitled to be about UBI, because it sure as hell isn’t about the Green New Deal.
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### Author:  [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/green-new-deal-economic-security-for-those-unwilling-to-work/829189/60 "2019-02-09T01:09:00Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> I grew up in a similar neighborhood and you are 100% correct. I think everyone who has such lofty ideas of humanity ought to live a few years in a very economically depressed area and see for themselves the reality of human nature.
Oddly enough I was also raised in a similar neighborhood, and both of you are wrong.
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