# Greenpeace Says Electric cars a Bust-Do You Agree? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152 "2012-09-28T16:52:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/101 "2012-10-01T03:12:43Z")
So **Magiver** apparently people want “the BMW 7-series, Audi A6, Mercedes-Benz S-Class and the Lexus RX 400h and CT 200h hybrids” even less. And saying that there are markets for those cars is “putting lipstick on a pig.” And oil is not getting more expensive to recover. Oil companies are not investing in hard-to-recover and unconventional oil sources. And [false claims](http://nation.foxnews.com/chevy-volt/2012/07/17/media-fail-chevy-volt-makes-no-money-costs-taxpayers-hundreds-thousands-dollars-car) that the Volt costs taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars a car, and [this montage](http://green.autoblog.com/2011/08/25/want-to-see-overwhelming-hatred-for-the-chevy-volt-watch-this-n/) is completely impartial … nope, the independent media watchdogs are just part of the lamestream [when they point out falsehoods](http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/07/18/fox-back-to-bashing-the-volt/187210) being promoted by sources like Fox. Meanwhile [average fuel efficiency is increasing](http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-13/news/31339045_1_fuel-efficiency-40mpg-new-cars) and vehicle miles traveled (VMT) both total and per capita are [already decreasing](http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6200). > [@](#): > > Full year estimates of vehicle-miles traveled nationwide in 2011 suggest traffic in continuing decline. For the calendar year 2011 the estimate was 2.93 trillion vehicle miles traveled (TVMT) vs 2.97 TVMT in 2010, 1.2% down. We’re 3.3% below traffic levels of the last boom year 2007. … > > … The population has been growing, so of course in per capita terms the traffic declines are larger - about 7%. And the decline in miles traveled per capita goes back to 2004 when the number was 10,120 miles traveled per person. > > 2005 and 2006 saw that number essentially flat, a decline 0.1% each year probably within the estimate’s margin of error. > > 2007 was 0.7% down on 2004, but 2008 at 9,780 was down 3.3%. Since then per capital travel has dropped off another 3.6% to 9,420. > > At 9,420 miles per capita travel in 2011 was 685 miles less than in 2007 and 700 miles less per person than in 2004. … Gas tax fees to be increased (or replaced with a mileage tax) mainly because they are nowhere near raising enough to maintain the infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/102 "2012-10-01T06:07:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They’re a million times less bust-y than supplementing gasoline with corn ethanol (which as we discovered last month, actually requires more energy input to produce than it generates). Did we? Where? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/103 "2012-10-02T05:02:24Z")
I’ll tell you guys the secret to a quick-charge battery. It is totally obvious and I’ll like to hear why it can’t be implemented right now. I’ll put it behind a spoiler tag so you can take 3 more seconds to realize how obvious it is. [spoiler]Parallel charging circuits. Design the battery in 2 or 4 or 8 or 32 or whatever cells depending on things like how big the battery is and how fast you want it to charge. Attach each cell to a different outlet. If you are doing this in the garage, you probably have only 2 outlets, so you’ll be limited to charging 2 cells at once. Maybe you have a 220V along with 2 outlets- adapters, baby, adapters. Standardize the charging point interface so it can accommodate multi-channel charging. Design it such that the car figures out what is being plugged into it via the interface. It’ll work best at a formal charging station. Say 8 outlets could be bundled together into a single, standardized plug which fits right into your electricity tank. Voila! Your car takes 1/8 the time to charge! If you only got 10 minutes, well it’ll probably make a dent at least. If you got a hybrid, top off the NG while you’re there. And grab a cappuccino and a donut, you’re at a [del]gas station[/del] 7-Eleven/restaurant/hotel. In any case, don’t worry about the carrying capacity of copper wire- just go parallel. This method is scalable for things like semis and trains as long as the batteries are large enough. Maybe you’d want a 32 or 64 channel charger for an electric semi. Maybe that much trouble is appropriate for a high-end industrial application, especially considering that in the long run your fuel source in inexhaustible and ever-cheaper. It could take a massive up-front investment, but using the technology that already exists today this country could become mostly energy independent using solar power alone. And a colossal effort.[/spoiler] The world is free to take this idea and run with it. In return, I only ask that capital gains taxes return to a more reasonable (25-30%) level to help balance the national budget. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/104 "2012-10-02T12:04:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’ll tell you guys the secret to a quick-charge battery… On the off-chance that you are serious, and I implemented a 8-channel charging station in my garage at 120v/20 amps each, I would blow the master circuit breaker for my entire house all at once. Have you really run the numbers on this? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/105 "2012-10-02T14:16:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > On the off-chance that you are serious, and I implemented a 8-channel charging station in my garage at 120v/20 amps each, I would blow the master circuit breaker for my entire house all at once. Have you really run the numbers on this? Well, I did point out you wouldn’t be able to fully implement it in your garage- my max example there was two ordinary outlets plus maybe a 220v. You’d need a specialized charging station for the 8-channel (x220v). In essence it’d be 8 separate cords terminating in a plug that connects them all at once to 8 separate cells, charging in parallel. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/106 "2012-10-02T15:14:46Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I did point out you wouldn’t be able to fully implement it in your garage- my max example there was two ordinary outlets plus maybe a 220v. Never mind the garage – My house has 150 amp service, and you are planning more than the entire house’s capacity just for one task, leaving my poor refrigerator out in the cold, so to speak. It also might be a good idea to crunch the numbers for KWH usage. In my neighborhood, that’s about 14 cents per. What will a fill-up cost? Just a WAG, but 8 220v lines running all night isn’t going to be free, even if a service entry didn’t have to be upgraded and special lines run. It might make a tank of gas cheap by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/107 "2012-10-02T15:34:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Never mind the garage – My house has 150 amp service, and you are planning more than the entire house’s capacity just for one task, leaving my poor refrigerator out in the cold, so to speak. > > It also might be a good idea to crunch the numbers for KWH usage. In my neighborhood, that’s about 14 cents per. What will a fill-up cost? Just a WAG, but 8 220v lines running all night isn’t going to be free, even if a service entry didn’t have to be upgraded and special lines run. It might make a tank of gas cheap by comparison. They wouldn’t have to run all night, though. The point of the multiple lines is to charge up faster. If the 220v chargers can do the whole thing in 3 hours then multiple lines would easily shave that down. Plus I think the chargers are smart enough to turn off when the battery is fully charged. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/108 "2012-10-02T16:27:27Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I did point out you wouldn’t be able to fully implement it in your garage- my max example there was two ordinary outlets plus maybe a 220v. You’d need a specialized charging station for the 8-channel (x220v). In essence it’d be 8 separate cords terminating in a plug that connects them all at once to 8 separate cells, charging in parallel. That would also require 8x as many charging circuits within the car, not an insubstantial extra cost. You also run into the issue of providing enough power to the charging station. At home, you’re generally going to be limited to 200V 200A service. Hooking up 8 200v/50A circuits is going to require you to upgrade to a 600Amp service. If you’re talking roadside charging, which is where raw speed matters, start with Tesla’s 30 minute charge. That sucker pulls 120KW. Plug 8 of those in at a time, your car is sucking in 1 megawatt. Every summer weekend would threaten to take down the nation’s power grid as Jersey Shore goers try to fill up on the Garden State Parkway. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/109 "2012-10-02T16:37:11Z")
Threads like these always remind me how dangerous and costly pet projects really are. Whether or not this technology WILL be sound in the future, the absolute cost on greener technology just isn’t and may never be profitable, yet we continue to spend like crazy folk on shit that doesn’t pan out : See Solyndra ([http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-09-09/news/33718400\_1\_george-kaiser-solyndra-solar-panels](http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-09-09/news/33718400_1_george-kaiser-solyndra-solar-panels)) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/110 "2012-10-02T17:12:59Z")
Just for shits & giggles, does anyone have the number of KWHs needed to charge a small all-electric car for a 200-mile range? People are acting as if plugging something in to the residential house socket provides free energy because it’s not gasoline. There must be a number that can be multiplied by the cost per KWH in your area (and we shouldn’t forget to amortize the replacement cost for batteries). ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/111 "2012-10-02T19:08:47Z")
Many Americans appear to believe that cheap gas/petrol is going to last indefinitely. Sorry muckers, it isn’t. And all of the heart felt pleas about how you can’t manage without your own personal car aren’t going to cut it when the military and power stations want the oil. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/112 "2012-10-02T19:58:19Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Just for shits & giggles, does anyone have the number of KWHs needed to charge a small all-electric car for a 200-mile range? People are acting as if plugging something in to the residential house socket provides free energy because it’s not gasoline. There must be a number that can be multiplied by the cost per KWH in your area (and we shouldn’t forget to amortize the replacement cost for batteries). Well, for 180 miles, the proposed Tesla supercharger uses 30min of power at 100KW, giving us about 50KWh of energy per charge. Assume $.13 per Kwh\*, that’s $6.50 for 180 miles. Assuming an 30mpg car, we’re talking $6.50 for the equivalent of 6 gallons of gas. - [electric prices](http://www.bls.gov/ro2/avgengny.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/113 "2012-10-02T20:03:52Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The trouble is that driving is a necessity in most US cities, so gas taxes end up being very regressive. I have a solution for that. 1. Jack up gax taxes. 2. Hand out refunds to the poorer households. It can’t be that hard to approximate the impact of the RickJay Gas Tax on a poorer household; you could even fix it to the number of persons oin the family. Raise gas taxes by an estimated X dollars per year, then hand a percentage of X back to the lower tax brackets. You encourage less gasoline usage while minimizing, or eliminating, the imapct on people who are the most affected. If the problem is gasoline use, any solution that does not impose the true cost of gasoline use on the people using it is hopelessly economically ass-backwards. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/114 "2012-10-02T20:33:01Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’ll tell you guys the secret to a quick-charge battery. It is totally obvious and I’ll like to hear why it can’t be implemented right now. I’ll put it behind a spoiler tag so you can take 3 more seconds to realize how obvious it is. You’ve never designed a battery charger, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/115 "2012-10-02T20:39:01Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I did point out you wouldn’t be able to fully implement it in your garage- my max example there was two ordinary outlets plus maybe a 220v. You’d need a specialized charging station for the 8-channel (x220v). In essence it’d be 8 separate cords terminating in a plug that connects them all at once to 8 separate cells, charging in parallel. That would be 16 slots on an electrical panel. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/116 "2012-10-02T21:36:56Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Well, for 180 miles, the proposed Tesla supercharger uses 30min of power at 100KW, giving us about 50KWh of energy per charge. Assume $.13 per Kwh\*, that’s $6.50 for 180 miles. Assuming an 30mpg car, we’re talking $6.50 for the equivalent of 6 gallons of gas. And how long (miles) will a battery pack last, and what does it cost to replace? I think that could eat up much of the savings. Not to mention the higher price for the car in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/117 "2012-10-02T22:59:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > One of the drawbacks to electrical storage is you are not just carrying around the fuel but the oxidizer as well as the storage medium for both. It is as if a car had to also carry it’s own oxygen including the high pressure tanks. Apparently you aren’t aware of zinc-air and lithium-air batteries that don’t need to carry around an oxidizer. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/118 "2012-10-02T23:13:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > One of the drawbacks to electrical storage is you are not just carrying around the fuel but the oxidizer as well as the storage medium for both. It is as if a car had to also carry it’s own oxygen including the high pressure tanks. Apparently you aren’t aware of zinc-air and lithium-air batteries that don’t need to carry around an oxidizer. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/119 "2012-10-02T23:46:58Z")
Frankly, the amount of money wasted on these things is insane-would it not be better to reduce fuel usage through taxation? Like taxing cars based upon their engine size. It would be better to wait until improvements in battery technology results in an electric car with viable range. I’m waiting to read that Tesla has gone broke-they are not profitable, and their stock is down. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152/120 "2012-10-02T23:56:18Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Just for shits & giggles, does anyone have the number of KWHs needed to charge a small all-electric car for a 200-mile range? People are acting as if plugging something in to the residential house socket provides free energy because it’s not gasoline. There must be a number that can be multiplied by the cost per KWH in your area (and we shouldn’t forget to amortize the replacement cost for batteries). Not quite what you’re asking (in terms of range), but: [Mitsubishi i-MiEV](http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/) Here are my calculations based on UK prices (petrol is damn pricey here): Assuming the best charging cost (economy rate electricity at night): £1.73 per full charge, divided by 93 mile range = Under 2 pence per mile Assuming the normal charging cost: £2.91 per charge, divided by 93 mile range = a little over 3 pence per mile Comparable petrol fuel submini car is probably the [Smart Fortwo](http://uk.smart.com/) - does around 65 MPG Unleaded fuel is about £6.40 a gallon currently, so the Smart costs nearly 10p a mile Obviously there are lots of other factors to consider - initial purchase cost, life expectancy, performance, useful range, etc - and I can’t be bothered to do the maths on those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenpeace-says-electric-cars-a-bust-do-you-agree/636152.md?page=7)