# Greenwald: "Endless war is official US policy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209 "2014-10-13T16:11:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/41 "2014-10-13T20:20:12Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > When have we NOT been in a state of military engagement somewhere on Earth since WWII? Is is true that the Americans were at peace between 1973 (Vietnam) and 1982 (Lebanon, as part of the MNF)? Not counting that minor skirmish with the Libyans in 1981. Honest question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/42 "2014-10-13T20:24:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You would prefer what… that we just _ignore_ the continued threat of international terrorism for the sake of “bringing the boys home”? Is “ending the war” a goal in and of itself that trumps actually achieving our purposes for engaging the enemy? > > ISIS isn’t going to pack up and go home just because we don’t feel like lifting a finger to fight them. Do you think it’s possible that our war is creating more terrorists than it’s eliminating? ISIL wants to draw us into the fight in Iraq so that the Sunni Arabs see us as the enemy. It’s entirely unclear to me that ISIL is a threat to the US. It’s a regional threat, but our regional allies don’t seem to be concerned. Same goes for our European allies. No one is “helping” us with our attack on ISIL in Syria, and maybe they know something we don’t know or are unwilling to acknowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/43 "2014-10-13T20:29:58Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Yes. > > “International terrorism” is not that big of a threat. A nuisance, at best. The whole goddamn “war” is a distraction. We are at war with the Oceania. We have always been at war with the Oceania. You’re arguing with someone who thinks _1984_ describes a utopia, not a dystopia. [No, I’m not kidding](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17550725&postcount=216). ---
**Author:** ![EndlessEntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f9ae1b/32.png) [@EndlessEntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EndlessEntropy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/44 "2014-10-13T20:34:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you think it’s possible that our war is creating more terrorists than it’s eliminating? ISIL wants to draw us into the fight in Iraq so that the Sunni Arabs see us as the enemy. It’s entirely unclear to me that ISIL is a threat to the US. It’s a regional threat, but our regional allies don’t seem to be concerned. Same goes for our European allies. No one is “helping” us with our attack on ISIL in Syria, and maybe they know something we don’t know or are unwilling to acknowledge. It was our meddling in the Middle East and the CIA’s covert actions that created ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/45 "2014-10-13T20:36:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m sure the families of the 9/11 victims will be comforted to know that what they went through was a nuisance at best. I’m sure the families of the Iraq War casualties will be comforted to know that their losses were such a comfort to the 9/11 victims families. It’s as if you can’t follow up 3,000 deaths in a tragic attack with 4,400 deaths in an unnecessary war without being criticized. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/46 "2014-10-13T20:39:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you think it’s possible that our war is creating more terrorists than it’s eliminating? Would not fighting the terrorists cause them to shrivel up and die for want of attention? I doubt it. We can fight them, and we can kill them. And if killing them inspires more people to become terrorists, we can kill them too. > [@](#): > > ISIL wants to draw us into the fight in Iraq so that the Sunni Arabs see us as the enemy. It’s entirely unclear to me that ISIL is a threat to the US. They’re a threat to our allies in Iraq at the moment, and if they’re allowed to grow more powerful, potentially to our allies in SA, Israel, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, etc. > [@](#): > > No one is “helping” us with our attack on ISIL in Syria. Well, except for [the 18 countries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Multinational_coalition_opposition) that _are_ helping us with our attack on ISIS in Syria. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/47 "2014-10-13T20:41:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m sure the families of the Iraq War casualties will be comforted to know that their losses were such a comfort to the 9/11 victims families. It’s as if you can’t follow up 3,000 deaths in a tragic attack with 4,400 deaths in an unnecessary war without being criticized. The Iraq war has nothing to do with 9/11. It was an unnecessary diversion and you won’t hear me defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/48 "2014-10-13T20:42:13Z")
> [@EndlessEntropy](#): > > It was our meddling in the Middle East and the CIA’s covert actions that created ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc And that means it’s our job to fix the mess we made. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/49 "2014-10-13T20:47:34Z")
> [@EndlessEntropy](#): > > It was our meddling in the Middle East and the CIA’s covert actions that created ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc … Saddam, the Saudis, Mubarak, the Iranian revolution… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/50 "2014-10-13T20:48:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And that means it’s our job to fix the mess we made. I agree, but sometimes the best way to help is to _ **stop helping** _. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/51 "2014-10-13T20:50:41Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I agree, but sometimes the best way to help is to _ **stop helping** _. And how did that work out for the Kurds in 1992? The Tutsis in 1994? The Iraqis and Syrians between 2011 and a few months ago? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/52 "2014-10-13T20:56:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let me use another analogy. Law enforcement is always 24/7 in “endless war” against crime. Why? Because crime always present. > The police presence isn’t the problem. The criminals are. If we repeal the laws making activities crime, then all criminal activity would be eliminated and there would be no more endless war against crime. _And_ there would be no criminals with guns!! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/53 "2014-10-13T21:04:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And how did that work out for the Kurds in 1992? The Tutsis in 1994? The Iraqis and Syrians between 2011 and a few months ago? Poorly. But there’s a difference in joining and funding international humanitarian agencies to prevent genocide, and constantly intervening to prevent the balance of power from re-establishing equilibrium. We’re doing the latter. In other words, we have a lot of tools to use, and I think we’re using the wrong set. We appear terrible at diplomacy and hit-and-miss with regard to humanitarian programs. We swing our military hammer in ever-wider arcs, and while we do a lot of damage I can’t see that we have accomplished much in the last 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/54 "2014-10-13T22:08:35Z")
First, I think the 2nd Iraq war should not have been started. Given that it was, as well as the Afghanistan war and it’s aftermath, I think that one solution we haven’t tried could work. Obviously it would be politically impossible, and it’s now too late to try in Afghanistan, but why didn’t/haven’t we tried to fix this post WWII style like we did in Japan and Western Germany? By that I mean going in with hundreds of thousands of troops and setting up a government with a western style government run initially by an American, the way that MacArthur was essentially the ruler of Japan after WWII? No messing around with folks like Karzai or al-Maliki that were more interested in helping themselves and their buddies than fixing their countries. Instead, we could have gone in and worked to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, work on the infrastructure, etc. and with hundreds of thousands of Americans to keep a genuine peace instead of supporting corrupt local politicians. Other than a lack of political will here in the US, is there a reason Iraq and Afghanistan could not have been rebuilt the way Germany and Japan were after WWII? And if we had, and done so successfully, would this not have essentially been the end to the war or terror, in the same way that war against Germany and Japan was permanently ended by the rebuilding efforts post WWII? ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/55 "2014-10-13T22:33:28Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > First, I think the 2nd Iraq war should not have been started. Given that it was, as well as the Afghanistan war and it’s aftermath, I think that one solution we haven’t tried could work. Obviously it would be politically impossible, and it’s now too late to try in Afghanistan, but why didn’t/haven’t we tried to fix this post WWII style like we did in Japan and Western Germany? By that I mean going in with hundreds of thousands of troops and setting up a government with a western style government run initially by an American, the way that MacArthur was essentially the ruler of Japan after WWII? No messing around with folks like Karzai or al-Maliki that were more interested in helping themselves and their buddies than fixing their countries. Instead, we could have gone in and worked to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, work on the infrastructure, etc. and with hundreds of thousands of Americans to keep a genuine peace instead of supporting corrupt local politicians. Other than a lack of political will here in the US, is there a reason Iraq and Afghanistan could not have been rebuilt the way Germany and Japan were after WWII? And if we had, and done so successfully, would this not have essentially been the end to the war or terror, in the same way that war against Germany and Japan was permanently ended by the rebuilding efforts post WWII? Great question! I’ll hazard a guess and say it’s a cost issue combined with negative feelings towards imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/56 "2014-10-13T22:34:33Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > First, I think the 2nd Iraq war should not have been started. Given that it was, as well as the Afghanistan war and it’s aftermath, I think that one solution we haven’t tried could work. Obviously it would be politically impossible, and it’s now too late to try in Afghanistan, but why didn’t/haven’t we tried to fix this post WWII style like we did in Japan and Western Germany? By that I mean going in with hundreds of thousands of troops and setting up a government with a western style government run initially by an American, the way that MacArthur was essentially the ruler of Japan after WWII? No messing around with folks like Karzai or al-Maliki that were more interested in helping themselves and their buddies than fixing their countries. Instead, we could have gone in and worked to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, work on the infrastructure, etc. and with hundreds of thousands of Americans to keep a genuine peace instead of supporting corrupt local politicians. Other than a lack of political will here in the US, is there a reason Iraq and Afghanistan could not have been rebuilt the way Germany and Japan were after WWII? And if we had, and done so successfully, would this not have essentially been the end to the war or terror, in the same way that war against Germany and Japan was permanently ended by the rebuilding efforts post WWII? I don’t have the full answer, but I think at least for Afghanistan, we were/are not dealing with a cohesive “country” in the way we think about Germany or Japan, which had functioning economies, political, and legal systems prior to the war. The peoples of Germany and Japan as well as their industries could more easily take the position of being lead. In Afghanistan, there is no functioning economy, political, or legal systems governing the country, and no industry to speak-of. There is nothing to really “lead” there in terms of reconstruction - it would be more like construction (no re-). Remember, the Soviets tried to destroy Afghanistan and failed just as bad as us at building democracy there. For Iraq, it would seem your question is more valid. I think one of the mistakes was firing the army and branding all former Bathe leadership criminals, so there was no security, and no leadership left to help. All of the above is just my speculating. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/57 "2014-10-13T22:53:54Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > For Iraq, it would seem your question is more valid. I think one of the mistakes was firing the army and branding all former Bathe leadership criminals, so there was no security, and no leadership left to help. I think this is another of the many things Bush messed up. I think if we had had a more competent president at the time, we would better off. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/58 "2014-10-13T23:04:30Z")
It is very funny to hear people suggest that the police should be responsible for stopping terrorism, when it’s the same people who complain that police stopping terrorism is creating a police state, which is totally unacceptable. Personally, I think the government should do what it can to fight murders, swimming pool deaths, cancer, alcoholism, teen pregnancy, and angry people overseas who are actually at this moment trying to find ways to kill innocent people here. That’s what makes me a liberal, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/59 "2014-10-13T23:10:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Step 3: A new international threat arises and he is forced to take action because of simple political realities that have nothing to do with elaborate backdoor conspiracies. I agree. My point was, some people act as if defense contractors pull immense strings and wield immense power, when in fact a president could say, “I refuse to listen. Go away,” anytime he or she wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/60 "2014-10-13T23:17:04Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve always wondered about this very point. Since the day it happened, the response to 9/11 has seemed like overkill to me given its real effect on the US as a whole that day. I mean, sure, it was big news, and it was certainly a terrible event, but on the grand scale it seemed more like a major crime than an act of war. A novel type of bomb (i.e. the airplanes) went off, four at once, and caused a few thousand people to die. Terrible, but similar in kind to what people in other countries have been enduring for a long, long time. The IRA killed a lot of civilians with their bombs, for example. It just seemed that Americans had, rather foolishly, believed ourselves immune, and were disproportionately upset because we weren’t. > > I think we would have been better off cleaning up the mess and steadfastly ignoring the criminals, beyond the trials for the immediate perpitrators and the obvious preventative steps needed to stop similar bombings. And Security Theater, as better minds than mine have pointed out, is not an effect prevention. The families of the victims of 9/11 are no more special than the families of the victims of any other crime or tragedy. I think it was disproportionate too, but more importantly, poorly waged war as a response. I think a relentless, shadowy campaign of assassinations of terrorists - like Israel’s response after the 1972 Munich Olympic attacks - would have been far cheaper and more appropriate. But retaliation war often leads to far more deaths than the initial cause itself. The USA lost 2,000+ people at Pearl Harbor…and lost hundreds of thousands of people by entering into World War II. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209.md?page=4)