# Greenwald: "Endless war is official US policy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209 "2014-10-13T16:11:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/61 "2014-10-13T23:57:03Z")
Not exactly a red pill. Even if we pretend American hasn’t practically been at war since its inception, the politicians have told you that the WOT will be a multi-generational conflict and if we want to “win” we have to occupy these countries for decades. > [@Steken](#): > > Is is true that the Americans were at peace between 1973 (Vietnam) and 1982 (Lebanon, as part of the MNF)? > > Not counting that minor skirmish with the Libyans in 1981. Only if you don’t count proxy wars and major CIA operations, like Condor and Typhoon. I think the longest period of American peace in the 20th century was from the end of the Banana Wars in 1934 to WWII. That was an uncharacteristically isolationist period. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Other than a lack of political will here in the US, is there a reason Iraq and Afghanistan could not have been rebuilt the way Germany and Japan were after WWII? And if we had, and done so successfully, would this not have essentially been the end to the war or terror, in the same way that war against Germany and Japan was permanently ended by the rebuilding efforts post WWII? The terror war target list goes all throughout the Middle East and North Africa. The neo-cons hoped a democratic Iraq would have a domino effect on the rest of the region, but I think it’d be more likely success there would spur more invasions and conflict to capitalize on the gains. Maybe we’d be occupying Syria right now. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/62 "2014-10-13T23:59:40Z")
The current spate of terrorism is more or less the product of a power vacuum. Until the end of WW2 Britain and France maintained colonial empires that unapologetically suppressed “native uprisings”, the ruthlessness of said suppressions going unremarked except by a handful of gadflies. Then after WW2 the Cold war divided much of the third world into Marxist and/or Soviet-allied nationalists on the one hand and American-back anti-communist dictatorships on the other. Neither side was overly worried about kindness or fairness. Since 1991 however the old framework has disappeared and nothing put in its place. The neocons had visions of America as a hyperpower imposing a global _pax Americana_, but they made the mistake of thinking it could be done without resorting to measures too brutal and ugly to be palatable to Americans in the information age. The savagery of the current civil wars/ uprisings/ terrorists is pretty much what happens when rival would-be governments are trying to gain and keep power. One could almost cynically wish that a new Caliphate _would_ conquer the middle east, if it was only willing to make peace with the west and keeping selling us oil. We’d tut-tut at the barbarities, chalk it up to “oriental despotism”, and look the other way. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/63 "2014-10-14T00:07:52Z")
I meant Operation Cyclone (Afghanistan), not Typhoon. Eh, close enough. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/64 "2014-10-14T00:22:14Z")
If a few drones could be permanently based in the Middle East and strike terrorists 365 days a year for just a few million dollars a year…what would be so bad about such a state of ‘endless war?’ ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/65 "2014-10-14T01:21:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If a few drones could be permanently based in the Middle East and strike terrorists 365 days a year for just a few million dollars a year…what would be so bad about such a state of ‘endless war?’ [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU) Seriously, you’re putting forward the suggestion that having remote controlled hunter killer drones permanently flying over dozens of countries is a good idea and you’ve never ever stopped to consider “are we the baddies?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/66 "2014-10-14T02:37:10Z")
I bet there’s quite a few people who look at violent extremists who plot ways to blow up airliners with underwear bombs and never stop to think whether we - not they - are the victims. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/67 "2014-10-14T06:22:21Z")
Anyways, yeah, imaginable paths to peace, from most likely to least likely: 1. One way or the other, the Middle East reaches a level of “stability” which, while far from Scandinavian, is still deemed good enough for some future “realistic hawk” of a President to shrug and say “eh, fuck it, mission accomplished.” War lobby protests; Prez ignores them; peace is achieved. 2. For whatever reason, the American people tire of the whole eternal-warfare-thing, and elect a dovish / non-interventionist / anti-war-or-at-the-very-least-against-_this_-war president. War lobby protests; Prez ignores them; peace is achieved. 3. After a sudden breakthrough in anti-drone technology sometime in the next 30 years, America’s foes in the region start knocking your drones out of the skies with great ease. The prospect of (yet another) land invasion is deemed too unpopular, or too expensive, or just straight up too damn hard to pull off. So whaddyagonnado. War lobby protests; Prez ignores them; peace is achieved. 4. The Mahdi returns, high-fives Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/68 "2014-10-14T16:51:23Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > 1. The Mahdi returns, high-fives Jesus… …and marries the Emperor’s daughter. The spice must flow. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/69 "2014-10-14T17:06:59Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Seriously, you’re putting forward the suggestion that having remote controlled hunter killer drones permanently flying over dozens of countries is a good idea and you’ve never ever stopped to consider “are we the baddies?” If it costs little money and no American lives, then two major objections are gone. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/70 "2014-10-16T22:40:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And how did that work out for the Kurds in 1992? The Tutsis in 1994? The Iraqis and Syrians between 2011 and a few months ago? Life is complicated and only simple people think there are simple answers to every question. Just because America fighting in World War II was a good idea doesn’t mean America fighting in Vietnam was a good idea. It was a good idea to fight Iraq in 1991 and a bad idea to fight Iraq in 2003. Sometimes intervening in a foreign crisis is a good idea and sometimes it’s a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/71 "2014-10-16T22:42:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Just because America fighting in World War II was a good idea doesn’t mean America fighting in Vietnam was a good idea. It was a good idea to fight Iraq in 1991 and a bad idea to fight Iraq in 2003. Sometimes intervening in a foreign crisis is a good idea and sometimes it’s a bad idea. And which is fighting in Iraq and Syria in 2014? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/72 "2014-10-16T22:50:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I bet there’s quite a few people who look at violent extremists who plot ways to blow up airliners with underwear bombs and \*\*never stop to think whether we - not they \*\*- are the victims. Is this a mix-up? I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/73 "2014-10-16T23:09:11Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I don’t have the full answer, but I think at least for Afghanistan, we were/are not dealing with a cohesive “country” in the way we think about Germany or Japan, which had functioning economies, political, and legal systems prior to the war. The peoples of Germany and Japan as well as their industries could more easily take the position of being lead. In Afghanistan, there is no functioning economy, political, or legal systems governing the country, and no industry to speak-of. There is nothing to really “lead” there in terms of reconstruction - it would be more like construction (no re-). Remember, the Soviets tried to destroy Afghanistan and failed just as bad as us at building democracy there. > > For Iraq, it would seem your question is more valid. I think one of the mistakes was firing the army and branding all former Bathe leadership criminals, so there was no security, and no leadership left to help. > > All of the above is just my speculating. I think you’re right on, though. I know some guys who served in Afghanistan (some as civilian contractors) and their assessment is very similar to yours. In post-WWII Germany, a mayor saw a new road as a national asset of Germany, helping to promote the common good. In Afghanistan, the local equivalent of a mayor would see it as HIS road available to promote HIS individual good, and would quite happily dig it up and sell the materials for use in building the road in the next town. One guy was quite emphatic in his opinion that no amount of resources would enable you to rebuild Afghanistan faster than the tribal leaders would take it apart. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/74 "2014-10-17T16:58:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We kindly asked the government of Afghanistan to extradite the immediate perpetrator. They said no. No, they didn’t. They made counter-offers, which included extradicting bin Laden to another country, and the U.S. government refused to negotiate or [let them save face.](http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/US_met_taliban.htm) > [@](#): > > Some Afghan experts argue that throughout the negotiations, the United States never recognized the Taliban need for _aabroh_, the Pashtu word for “face-saving formula.” Officials never found a way to ease the Taliban’s fear of embarrassment if it turned over a fellow Muslim to an “infidel” Western power. > [@Smapti](#): > > Extraordinary actions became necessary thereafter. They really didn’t. A 13+ year war was not necessary to bring bin Laden to justice, the entire war was a colossal waste. The Taliban condemned the 9/11 attacks, and weren’t sheltering bin Laden to any meaningful extent. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/75 "2014-10-17T18:42:57Z")
1. Don’t forget the ‘War against Drugs’. It can be said to have started in 1914, currently costs about $51 billion / year and has no end in sight. It includes 14 years of Prohibition ( **not** a success.) However it will continue forever (without any success or targets achieved) since politicians love saying they are tackling the ‘drug menace’. 1. In the ‘War against Terror’, the US has supported Saddam Hussein against Iran, supported Saudi Arabia against Saddam, supported action against Syria and is now embarrassed that Syria is an enemy of ISIS. However it will continue forever (without any success or targets achieved) since politicians love saying they are tackling the ‘terrorist menace’. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209/76 "2014-10-17T18:52:59Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Terrible, but similar in kind to what people in other countries have been enduring for a long, long time. The IRA killed a lot of civilians with their bombs, for example. It just seemed that Americans had, rather foolishly, believed ourselves immune, and were disproportionately upset because we weren’t. Thank you. At the time I whispered something similar to a German friend who lived through Baader-Meinhof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greenwald-endless-war-is-official-us-policy/701209.md?page=3)