# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/181 "2017-06-17T04:29:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Just got an email from my mother, who lives in Australia but grew up in England. > > Her sister, aged in her late 60s, who is largely estranged from the family and has had mental health problems, was apparently living in the tower recently, possibly with her adult daughter, and we haven’t been able to find out if they were still living there last week. > > The last address that my mum had for her was a flat in Grenfell Tower, and that was in January or February of this year. Mum called some friends in England, and they gave her the number for a phone line that’s been set up for relatives of the residents. She now has a file number, and is listed as next of kin, but hasn’t heard anything back yet. Reading that made me feel sick. Hopefully they moved ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/182 "2017-06-17T05:18:12Z")
[The Guardian has started a list of missing people and those confirmed dead](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/missing-victims-grenfell-tower-fire). Where possible they have included pictures. Please be aware that severe emotional reactions are possible when perusing this list. That was my experience, anyway (and no, I don’t know anyone who lived there). I have to give the Guardian a lot of credit; I think they are doing a fantastic job of covering this story and have from the start. Their dedication to documenting every detail is amazing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/183 "2017-06-17T05:40:01Z")
Yeah, i looked through those lists after my mother emailed me. None of the people listed is my aunt or my cousin. Her mental health problems include bouts of paranoia, where she is convinced that government agents are spying on her, or something similar. As a result, when she’s not in institutions, she often moves without telling anyone, and does her best not to be found. My mother and i both think that this is the more likely scenario here. The problem, if she is among the missing, is that it would be very difficult to know, because she often does her best to avoid other people, including friends and family. On the occasions where my mother has been able to track her down over the past five or ten years, it has often taken a lot of sleuthing, only to have her sister do everything possible to avoid any direct communication, and then disappear again. I haven’t had any contact with her since i was in my early teens, and i don’t think that mum has seen her face-to-face since then either. She lost her as a sister a long time ago; i think she tries to check up on her now more out of a sense of duty than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/184 "2017-06-17T06:51:06Z")
2.00pm is the first protest of the day - outside Downing Street. Did folks see Emily Matliss almost lose it with Theresa May last night. 8-minute version: [Emily Maitlis quizzes Theresa May on Grenfell Tower - FULL BBC Newsnight interview - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY1NlPk5YY) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/185 "2017-06-17T07:55:30Z")
The Queen’s low key trip has impressed a lot of people. It must have reminded her of the bombed out buildings during The Blitz. [https://www.google.com/amp/news.sky.com/story/amp/the-queen-meets-victims-of-grenfell-tower-fire-at-refuge-centre-10917388](https://www.google.com/amp/news.sky.com/story/amp/the-queen-meets-victims-of-grenfell-tower-fire-at-refuge-centre-10917388) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/186 "2017-06-17T11:14:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you selectively only chose legal requirements that the Tories introduced over 20 years ago, and ignored any legal requirements that the Tories may have weakened, or removed? Then I’m sure you’ll have no trouble fighting my ignorance and listing them. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/187 "2017-06-17T13:25:16Z")
**Quartz** Follow the link > **[Six Pack of Health & Safety Regulations affect all businesses](https://awardhealthandsafety.co.uk/six-pack-regulations/)** > > The Six Pack of Health & Safety Regulations is the core set of Health & Safety Rules which businesses have to be aware of. We can guide you through this. [https://worksmart.org.uk/health-advice/health-and-safety/employer-duties/what-six-pack](https://worksmart.org.uk/health-advice/health-and-safety/employer-duties/what-six-pack) The management of Health & Safety At Work (MHASAWA)and the Provision and Use of Work Equipment regulations - (PUWER) These cover the inspection and testing of equipment and installations along with keeping records The next act was the Fire Regulatory Reform Act > **[Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 : Firesafe.org.uk](https://www.firesafe.org.uk/regulatory-reform-fire-safety-order-2005/)** > > The Fire Safety Advice Centre > **[Fire safety](https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/fire.htm)** > > Most fires are preventable. Those responsible for workplaces and other buildings to which the public have access can avoid them by taking responsibility for and adopting the right behaviours and procedures. The conversion work on these flats falls squarely under these regulations, specifically the guide on sleeping accommodation. You well know that virtually all of our safety laws emanate from the EU in the form of directives, and in your case there really is not an excuse, you damn well know it. Is it too great a stretch to imagine that the legislation that covers this block of flats is also derived via EU rules? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/188 "2017-06-17T13:28:02Z")
Here is the official line on EU directives, and you can search for the exact one you wish > **[European directives on safety and health at work | Safety and health at work...](https://osha.europa.eu/en/safety-and-health-legislation/european-directives)** > > Article 153 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union gives the EU the authority to adopt directives in the field of safety and health at work. The Framework Directive, with its wide scope of application, and further directives focusing... [https://osha.europa.eu/en/search/directives?filter=safety&filter-title=&f[0]=&=Search](https://osha.europa.eu/en/search/directives?filter=safety&filter-title=&f%5B0%5D=&=Search) ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/189 "2017-06-17T14:02:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Just got an email from my mother, who lives in Australia but grew up in England. > > Her sister, aged in her late 60s, who is largely estranged from the family and has had mental health problems, was apparently living in the tower recently, possibly with her adult daughter, and we haven’t been able to find out if they were still living there last week. > > The last address that my mum had for her was a flat in Grenfell Tower, and that was in January or February of this year. Mum called some friends in England, and they gave her the number for a phone line that’s been set up for relatives of the residents. She now has a file number, and is listed as next of kin, but hasn’t heard anything back yet. I hope you find her and she is safe. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/190 "2017-06-17T14:32:05Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Did folks see Emily Matliss almost lose it with Theresa May last night. > > 8-minute version: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY1NlPk5YY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY1NlPk5YY) So that’s what an angry Emily Maitlis looks like. The cartoon in today’s Times is brutal: > ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/191 "2017-06-17T17:26:17Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > You well know that virtually all of our safety laws emanate from the EU in the form of directives, Actually, I didn’t. Thank you for the links, but on first glance many of them seem to be about health & safety at work, not about buildings themselves. > [@](#): > > The next act was the Fire Regulatory Reform Act > > [http://www.firesafe.org.uk/regulator...ty-order-2005/](http://www.firesafe.org.uk/regulator...ty-order-2005/) This one actually specifically excludes private dwellings, so there’s no reason for me to have seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/192 "2017-06-17T17:49:49Z")
[58 confirmed or presumed dead now. > [@](#): > > Police Commander Stuart Cundy said the number of 58 is based on reports from the public and may rise. It includes 30 deaths that already have been confirmed, and reports of people who are missing and presumed to have been killed. He says it will take weeks or longer to recover and identify all the dead at the building. > > “Sadly, at this time there are 58 people who we have been told were in the Grenfell Tower on the night that are missing. And therefore, sadly, I have to assume that they are dead,” he said. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU\_BRITAIN\_LONDON\_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-06-17-13-39-22](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_BRITAIN_LONDON_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-06-17-13-39-22)) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/193 "2017-06-17T19:41:27Z")
Say what will you about the usefulness of royalty but when shit goes to hell, the Queen shows up to try to make people feel better in her own way. She’s willing to look bad things in the face and call it like it is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/194 "2017-06-17T21:20:30Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > So if it turns out, as accused, that part of the cause of the fire was saving just £5,000 on the cladding, it won’t just be because the council are corrupt but because they’re broke. Why did they clad it in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/195 "2017-06-17T21:36:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why did they clad it in the first place? For purely cosmetic reasons: apparently the blocks were eyesores and offended the sensibilities of others living in the community. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/196 "2017-06-17T21:41:54Z")
Death toll of 100+ sounds plausible. Maybe even 200? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/197 "2017-06-17T21:52:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why did they clad it in the first place? It was part of a general refurb of the building. Cladding helps with insulation. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/198 "2017-06-17T21:56:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Death toll of 100+ sounds plausible. Maybe even 200? I’ve thought the same thing all along. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/199 "2017-06-17T22:48:06Z")
I noted that they also replaced the old solid steel windows with new vinyl windows. Guess what melted when the blowtorch went by and let in the flames? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/200 "2017-06-17T23:33:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Then I’m sure you’ll have no trouble fighting my ignorance and listing them. …you want me to do the legwork to prove \*\*your \*\*point? You cherry picked. I said “cherry-picking a few random things that happened over 20 years ago isn’t going to waive away the last few years of austerity.” And it isn’t. The claim was that “The way Tories [relentlessly](http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/government-ministers-congratulated-themselves-for-cutting-fire-regulations-6713967/)[’cut red tape’](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/grenfell-tower-red-tape-safety-deregulation) in their self-interest as landlords” is not disproved by a handful of regulations introduced decades before Former Prime Minister David Cameron said that a Conservative government would: [‘Kill off the health and safety culture for good’.](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-i-will-kill-off-safety-culture-6285238.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=11)