# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/281 "2017-06-25T20:04:28Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > [Herostratus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herostratus). There’s no suggestion that the Grenfell Tower fire was arson. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/282 "2017-06-25T20:46:12Z")
No, but there’s now 60 out of up to 600 highly-populated matchsticks sitting out in the open. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/283 "2017-06-25T21:29:48Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > No, but there’s now 60 out of up to 600 highly-populated matchsticks sitting out in the open. I see your point. They have increased security at the moment, though. Intentionally starting a fire at one of those buildings would be very difficult right now. Additionally, while the cladding definitely seems to be part of the reason the fire spread so quickly, we don’t know if other factors came into play too, like the way it was put on (possibly leaving a gap) or fire breaks being compromised, etc. Those faults may not be repeated in other buildings as well. One of the buildings in Camden that’s being evacuated has had a fire since the refurbishment and it didn’t cause an inferno like this one. That’s one of the reasons a lot of the residents are unwilling to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/284 "2017-06-26T01:00:29Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I see your point. > > They have increased security at the moment, though. Intentionally starting a fire at one of those buildings would be very difficult right now. > > Additionally, while the cladding definitely seems to be part of the reason the fire spread so quickly, we don’t know if other factors came into play too, like the way it was put on (possibly leaving a gap) or fire breaks being compromised, etc. Those faults may not be repeated in other buildings as well. One of the buildings in Camden that’s being evacuated has had a fire since the refurbishment and it didn’t cause an inferno like this one. That’s one of the reasons a lot of the residents are unwilling to leave. …Mike G posits this over at the ISF forums (formerly the James Randi forums) [QUOTE=Mike G at the ISF] For those who missed it last time I said it, I’ll say this again, in a different way. The original building was solid concrete, making it fireproof by any standard on the planet. You could in theory smear napalm over the outside of the entire building and set it on fire, and still have plenty of time to get all of the occupants out safely. OK? So, given the above, adding some cladding onto the outside of the building shouldn’t make any difference to the fire safety of the building and its occupants, whatever the flammability of that cladding. And if that is only what they had done, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion, I’m sure. But it wasn’t all they did. They replaced the windows, and put them outside the line of the concrete. That one decision could be the most important of the whole saga. Even then, that shouldn’t necessarily have caused the fire to engulf the interior of the building, because if the window/ concrete interface had been properly fire-sealed then the building should have remained safe. The drawing I have seen doesn’t show any such fire-stopping. That isn’t to say that it wasn’t there, but the drawing shows Celotex insulation there, not firestopping material, so if it was built as per the drawing then the window board (erroneously called cill) becomes effectively the only fire barrier. Understanding the window surround detail could be the most important technical thing the Public Inquiry reports on, and the hysteria over the flammability of the cladding will come to be seen as a side issue. [/QUOTE] > **[International Skeptics Forum](https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11897467&postcount=897)** > > Join the International Skeptics Forum to discuss and promote critical thinking across the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/285 "2017-06-26T06:43:00Z")
I imagine the changes to the window configuration will have been repeated quite commonly elsewhere - if you add cladding to a building, you are increasing the thickness of the walls - if you leave the original window line, you’re essentially recessing all of the existing windows, which will decrease their utility in terms of natural light and view (not to mention that it might look aesthetically weird from the outside). So I expect that it will be quite common for windows to have been moved out to the surface level of the cladding - and fitting a broader windowsill on the inside. If it could be done safely, the residents would probably even welcome it - as windowsills are useful places to grow houseplants. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/286 "2017-06-26T12:12:37Z")
Er… just how thick do you think this cladding stuff is? Does anyone know? Would it really make a significant difference in how recessed the windows are? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/287 "2017-06-26T14:01:28Z")
In the reno, they removed the old leaky metal windows and replaced them with vinyl air tight windows. You know, the type that melt at fire temps, give off poisonous gasses and let fire in? ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/288 "2017-06-26T15:04:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So, in a libertarian paradise we’d all have to be fire safety experts in addition to everything else we need to be experts at? How would YOU go about determining if exterior building cladding is safe or not? > > That is why we have government oversight - because we can’t all be experts in everything, In a libertatian paradise, you are reponsible to your own safety, but you don’t have to conduct the tests yourself, nor do you have to be an expert on everything. In fact, in a libertarian paradise, the _only_ thing you have to be an expert in is finding the right people and/or companies to employ, to do those things you can’t do for yourself. i.e. you need to be an expert on due dilligence and background checks. Not that that’s any better. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/289 "2017-06-26T15:06:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Er… just how thick do you think this cladding stuff is? Does anyone know? Would it really make a significant difference in how recessed the windows are? A centimeter or less, but then there’s how it’s applied - standoff, shaping, etc. Still shouldn’t be a significant challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/290 "2017-06-26T20:39:13Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > A centimeter or less, but then there’s how it’s applied - standoff, shaping, etc. Still shouldn’t be a significant challenge. As I understand it, Grenfell had 70 or 75 mm of insulation, a 50mm air gap, then the cladding layer which was only 5 or 6mm, but in total, that’s 5 inches of extra wall thickness - and the original windows would have been set in a little, so the effect of maintaining the original window line would have been aesthetically weird and undesirable. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/291 "2017-06-28T19:30:38Z")
Updates today. There’s been a lot of speculation that the death toll is far higher than publicly acknowledged. The Metropolitan Police put out the following statement today: (from this press release page [http://news.met.police.uk/news/update-six-fatalities-following-the-fire-in-north-kensington-246230?hootPostID=001ad7be6805c6adcbcb704405700556](http://news.met.police.uk/news/update-six-fatalities-following-the-fire-in-north-kensington-246230?hootPostID=001ad7be6805c6adcbcb704405700556). It’s a continuously updated page, with no copyright restriction as far as I can tell, so I’ll just post the relevant release) > [@](#): > > Updated briefing by temporary Detective Chief Superintendent Fiona McCormack: > > "I’m leading our investigation into the Grenfell Tower fire, my background is homicide and counter terrorism investigations and this investigation will require similar skills and expertise. > > "I understand that there is huge concern, speculation and rumour about the number of people who lost their lives in the fire at Grenfell Tower. > > "We are now two weeks into our investigation and I think it’s important to update you all on what we know and importantly what we are working on to establish. > > "And I would stress I share the concern about the number of missing people. > > "I must stress that we do not yet have the final picture and that work will take some time. > > "It is important that whilst I’m talking about numbers as I speak to you - what I mean and what we are talking about is ‘people’ - the victims of the fire. > > "We are many months from being able to provide a number that we believe accurately represents the total loss of life inside Grenfell Tower. > > "Only after we have completed the search and recovery operation - which will take until the end of the year - and then months afterwards, when experts have carried out the identification process, will we be in a position to tell you who has died. > > "What I can say is that we still believe around 80 people to be either dead or sadly missing and I must presume that they are dead. > > "There are people who I believe can still help my investigation to better establish a clearer picture. > > "Today, what I can tell you is: > > "On the first day of our work we were provided with a list by the tenant management organisation of who they had recorded as living in Grenfell Tower. > > "We quickly identified - by the end of that day - that the list was not accurate. > > "We have focused our efforts on every possible source of information, including all relevant authority records to understand who lived in Grenfell Tower at the time of the fire. > > "But what we all know is that it would have been impossible for anyone to produce a list before that showed exactly who was in Grenfell Tower that night - that includes those people living there but also those visiting. > > "What I can tell you is there are 129 flats inside Grenfell Tower. We, the police, have spoken to at least one occupant of 106 of those 129 flats. > > "These people have been able to tell us not just who lived in those flats, but importantly who was in those flats on the night - so including those who were visiting. > > "We have also been able to understand from the people that we have spoken to about who their friends and neighbours were and where they lived within Grenfell Tower. > > "From what we have been told so far, we know that from those 106 flats, 18 people are dead or missing, presumed dead. > > "Of course I must consider the possibility that there are others who we have not yet been told about. > > "That means though - and it is a terrible reality - that there are 23 flats where despite huge investigative efforts, we have been unable to trace anyone alive who lived there. > > "So - at this stage - we must presume that no one in those 23 flats survived - that would include those who lived there or any anyone who was visiting them. > > "We are in contact with some next of kin and some friends - I cannot say today with any certainty the total number of people who were in those 23 flats on the night. > > "The 23 flats are spread from the 11th floor to the 23rd floor. > > "We have listened to **26, 999** calls to the London Fire Brigade from people who said they were inside one of those 23 flats. > > "We are focusing with an absolute priority on reviewing all the information we have, from many, many sources, about who lived or who was visiting those 23 flats. > > "And by that I mean all imaginable sources from government agencies to fast food delivery companies. > > "We have been in touch with local schools and nurseries to understand if there are children who have not attended since the fire. > > "Our work has also identified people who we presumed were dead that we have traced safe and well - for example a couple who have been out of the country on holiday. > > "But as our work continues we are also indentifying people who are missing and we are being told may have been in Grenfell Tower that night. > > "I want to be absolutely clear - I reiterate what I have said before - I do not want there to be any hidden victims of this tragedy. > > "And today I am asking for people to help us. > > "We know that there is a huge amount of work being carried out by local community action groups to understand who escaped and survived the fire and who may still be missing. > > "If there are groups with information such as this, please give it to us - our aim is the same. We want to understand the true human cost of this tragedy. > > "But very importantly we want to do all we can to recover whoever remains inside Grenfell Tower, identify them and return them to their loved ones. > > "We also want to support their families through the very worst of times. > > "If you do know of someone who was living in or visiting Grenfell Tower on the night of the fire but have concerns about speaking to police, please do not worry. > > "Tell us what you know - we are not interested in your reasons for not speaking to us sooner. We are not interested in sub-letting or immigration issues - we need any information that you may have. Please call us on 0800 032 4539. > > "Our search and recovery operation is continuing and as I have said that work is likely to be ongoing until the end of the year. > > "We have done a full visual search of the building and have been in every flat on every floor. > > "Our search continues to make sure that we recover all of those who died in the fire - it will be a painstaking fingertip search. > > "Sadly, due to the devastation caused by the fire there are a very small number of flats that it aren’t safe for us to work inside - experts are doing all they can to solve that for us. > > "We are working very hard to identify everyone who died in the fire but the tragic reality is that due to the intense heat of the fire there are some people who we may never indentify. > > "I was inside Grenfell Tower yesterday and saw the utter devastation inside the flats - I cannot stress the challenges facing the search and recovery teams. > > "They told me of their determination to do their work with as much dignity and sensitivity as possible. > > "We are drawing on expert advice from a range of international specialists such as anthropologists and odontologists - the work to identify people will be ongoing for many months to come. > > But tragically we are preparing families and loved ones for the fact we may never recover the remains of their loved ones. > > "At the heart of our investigation we are seeking to establish what happened to each and every person who lost their life - each and every personal story is deeply distressing. This is what my 250 detectives are working so hard on. > > "But we must also investigate and establish why this happened. We are investigating this as we would any major crime investigation. > > "We will identify and investigate any criminal offence and, of course, given the deaths of so many people we are considering manslaughter, as well as criminal offences and breaches of legislation and regulations. > > "We have had over 45 calls to our incident room number since last Friday - those calls are about people safe and well, missing or people giving us information. I am grateful to those people and hope that it continues. > > "Specialist experts - BRE - are working on a flat by flat assessment of every safety feature so we can provide individual accounts to families, the public inquiry and my investigation. This is so we can be clear on the state of each flat and any specific fire safety features as well as every part of the building. > > "We are continuing to seize material on a daily basis and the number of companies and organisations that we know so far to have played a role in the refurbishment alone is over 60. > > "We are continuing to take statements from the survivors of Grenfell Tower and, as I have said, we have previously listened to each and every one of the 600 plus 999 calls made to the emergency services that night > > “It is a priority for the Met Police. Our investigation will be exhaustive - it must provide the answers that so many people are seeking and so desperately deserve.” That’s seems to me to be a sensible, and possibly overdue, statement to make. I bolded this badly expressed part: > [@](#): > > We have listened to **26, 999** calls to the London Fire Brigade from people who said they were inside one of those 23 flats. as it might be confusing to some readers as it was initially to me. For clarity that means 26 calls to the 999 emergency number. What a grim prospect the recovery and identification process is ☹ Oh, and the testing of building claddings is now at 120 failed samples out of 120 submitted, across 37 local authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/292 "2017-06-28T19:50:17Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Oh, and the testing of building claddings is now at 120 failed samples out of 120 submitted, across 37 local authorities. Thanks for update, **Baron**. That number right there is astounding. I know I’ve read that people are being evacuated from many if not all of the places with that type of cladding. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/293 "2017-06-28T19:58:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thanks for update, **Baron**. That number right there is astounding. Presumably they are prioritising testing the most at-risk samples first, but yeah, something stinks really badly here. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/294 "2017-06-28T21:43:51Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > "That means though - and it is a terrible reality - that there are 23 flats where despite huge investigative efforts, we have been unable to trace anyone alive who lived there. That is a heartbreaking sentence ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/295 "2017-06-28T22:12:09Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > That is a heartbreaking sentence ☹ Isn’t it? And they have 999 calls from some of the people in those flats. I don’t envy the people having to listen to them. I’m glad this is still being taken so seriously. It’s happened before that disasters involving mainly poor people (Hillsborough, Aberfan) did not result in serious attempts by the authorities to bring anyone to account, but so far it’s not looking like that here. (There are charges relating to Hillsborough now but that’s nearly three decades after the events). ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/296 "2017-06-28T22:17:43Z")
David Lammey said they could get an accurate number of deaths by looking at DWP records (tax, benefits, inc. Child) plus school absentees, plus triangulation of mobile phone calls. Other stuff too, I assume. Apparently they used this technique re the 7/7 attacks and we’re a decade further down the Big Data road now. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/297 "2017-06-28T22:50:02Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > David Lammey said they could get an accurate number of deaths by looking at DWP records (tax, benefits, inc. Child) plus school absentees, plus triangulation of mobile phone calls. Other stuff too, I assume. > > Apparently they used this technique re the 7/7 attacks and we’re a decade further down the Big Data road now. Going on the statement above I think they are using all those methods but the problem is that not everyone in the flats might be recorded like that. Illegal immigrants and subletters (both of which are more likely because of the location) probably won’t be on any official records (hence the cop saying they’re not interested in pursuing charges on those grounds) and visitors who just came round - like for Iftahar - won’t be either. Quite a few of the known dead didn’t live in the building. The cops’ focus on this may partly because of evidence from neighbours; I knew a flat at my previous estate was being illegally sublet but I didn’t know the full names of the subletters. Neighbours at Grenfell might have passed on similar information. And then there might be no contact with any survivors from flat 118 and the cops can’t tell if it’s because the tenants are hiding, afraid of being deported, or because their bodies are in there too burnt to be identified. It doesn’t sound to me like the cops are missing any tricks when it comes to locating people, it’s just that there’s a perfect storm of circumstances making it much more difficult than you’d expect. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/298 "2017-06-28T23:59:03Z")
From the press conference quoted by **Baron Greenback** : > [@](#): > > "That means though - and it is a terrible reality - that there are 23 flats where despite huge investigative efforts, we have been unable to trace anyone alive who lived there. > > "So - at this stage - we must presume that no one in those 23 flats survived - that would include those who lived there or any anyone who was visiting them. It appears, based on information my mother has received from the London police, that my aunt and my cousin are very likely among those missing presumed dead. I noted, back in [post #180](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20284518#post20284518), that my mother had information about them living in Grenfell Tower earlier in the year. The police detective who has been helping my mother has managed to find a doctor and a lawyer who, separately, had both visited the two women in the apartment. The lawyer had apparently been there as recently as about a week before the fire. Based on information the police detective got from the doctor and lawyer, it seems very unlikely that my aunt and cousin would have been anywhere BUT the apartment on the night of the fire. The detective said that it is reasonable to assume they both died. Because they were living as semi-recluses, estranged from the family, the police might not even have known who to look for if my mother hadn’t called them. They haven’t yet been announced in any public lists of missing or dead, because there’s just no real confirmation yet. For what it’s worth, my mother said that the police detective who has been handling her case has been absolutely fantastic. Apparently she has called my mum four or five times over the past week, giving her updates on the situation. I believe that she’s also going to put mum in contact with the lawyer who was visiting them. [Please, no expressions of sympathy. I don’t want to hijack the overall discussion. As i said earlier in the thread, i hadn’t seen either of them for the better part of 30 years, when i was a teenager, so this is not a personal loss for me, in that sense. I just thought people might be interested to know what’s happening.] ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/299 "2017-06-29T01:36:51Z")
Will you accept a thank you, **mhendo**? Your posts may be the closest most of us come to knowing someone personally affected by this tragedy, and I think it’s a good reminder that these were real people, not just anonymous (and therefore unknowable) names in the sea of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/300 "2017-06-30T07:18:09Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It doesn’t sound to me like the cops are missing any tricks when it comes to locating people, it’s just that there’s a perfect storm of circumstances making it much more difficult than you’d expect. That’s certainly a popular media theme; or is it lazy journalism. Someone - from a named, identifiable bank account - is paying the rent to the council for every single flat. Even if it’s a sublet, that is ultimately traceable as money moves between accounts. Even if the deal is cash, money is moving and the address associated with the accounts tells the truth. Sure,that doesn’t allow for visitors, but most visitors will be missing from somewhere - work, school, home, bill-paying, etc. You can see why it might take until next year, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=16)