# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/301 "2017-06-30T16:31:00Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > That’s certainly a popular media theme; or is it lazy journalism. Someone - from a named, identifiable bank account - is paying the rent to the council for every single flat. Even if it’s a sublet, that is ultimately traceable as money moves between accounts. > > Even if the deal is cash, money is moving and the address associated with the accounts tells the truth. > > Sure,that doesn’t allow for visitors, but most visitors will be missing from somewhere - work, school, home, bill-paying, etc. You can see why it might take until next year, though. Well, either: A) The police are right and it is unusually difficult to identify the victims right now B) The police are so thick they never thought of checking who the legal tenants are (though they’ve said they have) let alone checking bank accounts registered there (though I don’t think checking into the banking history of all the official tenants is going to be that straightforward) C) The police are lying for some reason I’m going with a. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/302 "2017-06-30T16:45:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Will you accept a thank you, **mhendo**? Your posts may be the closest most of us come to knowing someone personally affected by this tragedy, and I think it’s a good reminder that these were real people, not just anonymous (and therefore unknowable) names in the sea of humanity. Sure, thanks. I just didn’t want to start a sympathy-fest, is all. I can, however, weigh in on one aspect of the investigation… > [@SciFiSam](#): > > Well, either: > > A) The police are right and it is unusually difficult to identify the victims right now > > B) The police are so thick they never thought of checking who the legal tenants are (though they’ve said they have) let alone checking bank accounts registered there (though I don’t think checking into the banking history of all the official tenants is going to be that straightforward) > > C) The police are lying for some reason > > I’m going with a. If my mother’s contact with the people at the Met is any indication, they are working their asses off, in all sorts of ways, to identify who might (and might not) have been in the tower when it burned. Sure, it seems like they should just be able to trace names on leases, payments through banks, etc. ,etc., but stories in the news suggest that a lot of the apartment tenants and visitors were there under pretty informal agreements. If there were exchanges of cash, and not checks or bank transfers, that makes things harder. If the sub-letting was informal, without actual lease agreements, there might be no records at all of who was in the apartment. But here’s one example of the lengths they’re going to in order to identify people. My mother was called again two days ago by the detective who has been handling her case. She asked my mum if she would be willing to provide a DNA sample, which the investigators would compare against any unidentified human remains found in the tower. Obviously, if my aunt and cousin are among the dead, their DNA will show a familial match to my mother. My mother, of course, agreed to do this. Yesterday, two members of the Australian Federal Police showed up at her door with a DNA collection kit, and they took two samples, which will apparently be sent, via Interpol, to London for testing and comparison. There’s a whole lot of blame to go around in all of this, but as far as I can tell, the police are doing everything they possibly can to identify the dead and missing. As i said before, my mother has nothing but good things to say about the way she’s been treated and about the hard work and thoughtfulness of the people she’s been dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/303 "2017-11-17T01:11:57Z")
Not sure if anyone is interested in this, but today my aunt and my cousin were named as the last two victims of the fire to be formally identified. [This BBC story](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42008279) has a picture of my aunt, from when she was much younger. The family statement was issued by my mother. As i said, i hadn’t seen either of them for years, so there was not really any sense of loss for me. Mum hadn’t seen them for quite a long time either, but she had been in contact by mail and phone a few years back, and i think the death of her sister was pretty tough on her, even though they hadn’t been close for quite a while. The UK police have been in close touch with my mother ever since the incident, and they’ve been fantastic about keeping her up to date with their investigation and their efforts at identifying the bodies. We’ve known for a few weeks that they were pretty sure they had the right people, but the final tests were only confirmed in the last couple of days. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/304 "2017-11-17T01:21:01Z")
Thank you for the update, **mhendo**. It is heartening to see that the UK authorities are still doggedly moving ahead with their investigation and analysis. With any tragedy there’s always the hope that we can learn what went wrong and make corrective actions so they don’t happen again. And it’s great to hear that the police have been in close touch. Overall, it seems as if the post-fire moves have been mostly on point. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/305 "2017-11-17T04:13:08Z")
I see The Authorities have announced the official death toll. (Still seems low to me.) Londoners, is this building still standing? What does it look like? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/306 "2017-11-17T04:27:01Z")
Thanks **mhendo**. I hope your mum fares OK through this. It’s so sad though that the Grenfell fires had fallen out of my scope of care…not a week goes by now without some other major tragedy, that I needed your update to bring the utter horror of that event back to mind. Thanks, go well, and all the best to your mum mate. kam ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/307 "2017-11-17T09:08:23Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I see The Authorities have announced the official death toll. (Still seems low to me.) Thankfully so. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Londoners, is this building still standing? What does it look like? Yes it is, as they can hardly demolish it when they are still trying to find victims. A quick Google will show you precisely what it currently looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/308 "2017-11-17T14:15:21Z")
\*\*mhendo \*\*, please accept my condolences. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/309 "2017-11-17T17:31:26Z")
My condolences **mhendo**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/310 "2017-11-17T18:07:59Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Thanks **mhendo**. I hope your mum fares OK through this. > > \ > > Thanks, go well, and all the best to your mum mate. > > kam > [@Broomstick](#): > > \*\*mhendo \*\*, please accept my condolences. > [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > My condolences **mhendo**. Thanks, folks. As i said, this was not really a personal tragedy for me, as i hadn’t seen either my aunt or my cousin since i was in high school, 30-odd years ago. It was, however, quite interesting to be on the inside, hearing about the communications between the British authorities and my mother regarding the investigation, the discovery of the remains (both apparently huddled in the same bed together), and the processes for identifying them. In addition to doing DNA testing (for which my mother gave a sample, shipped from Australia to the UK), they apparently also used isotope analysis, which allows them to compare particular chemical isotopes found in human remains with data about a person’s travel history. They knew from my mother that my aunt had spent time, during her life, in Australia, Turkey, South Africa, and a few other places, and apparently the environmental conditions experienced in different parts of the world have an effect on the isotopes found in your body. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/311 "2017-11-17T21:30:46Z")
It sounds like they were being very thorough. I knew that that technology existed, but had not heard of any cases where it had been used. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/312 "2017-11-18T15:43:59Z")
I believe the isotope technology was used to help date Richard III’s bones. At first the carbon dating suggested it couldn’t be Richard, but then the isotope analysis showed that the deceased had eaten a heavy fish diet. Since fish have a different mixture of carbon isotopes in their bodies, that in turn was throwing off the carbon date for the bones. Once the isotope analysis was used to correct the carbon analysis, the carbon date hit the sweet spot for Richard III. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/313 "2017-11-18T21:00:02Z")
I’m sorry for you and your mum **mhendo**. Having to wait that long for news must’ve been tough. What I found troubling in that BBC story link is how tenants were told by officials to sit tight in their flats and wait for rescue, and no rescue came. Of course no one wants a panicked stampede in that situation, but it seemed that more people might have lived if they hadn’t been dutifully following instructions. It makes you wonder whether to listen to the authorities or not during a crisis, and hesitation could be deadly in such a case. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/315 "2017-11-21T02:21:04Z")
Two Many Cats and Sadder’s posts are very well timed. As I understand fire safety, the official advice to shelter in place is exactly correct-when the building is constructed correctly. Obviously the refit of the tower was not done correctly. If the sheathing had been safe, probably no one would have gotten hurt. A very sad time for London and people everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/316 "2018-05-21T16:49:00Z")
[Grenfell Tower survivors weep as inquiry begins in London](https://apnews.com/9ee786ca30ae4910a36c7648987054a6/Grenfell-Tower-survivors-weep-as-inquiry-begins-in-London): > [@](#): > > The Grenfell Tower inquiry is beginning with two weeks of tributes to those who died when a fire that began in a faulty fridge raced through the 24-story apartment block in June 2017. The statements from friends and family members are meant to keep the victims at the center of the inquiry, which will try to determine how the disaster happened and prevent a similar tragedy happening in the future. > > “When we die, we live on in the memories of those who knew and loved us,” said retired judge Martin Moore-Bick, who is leading the inquiry. “It is fitting therefore that the opening hearings … should be dedicated to the memory of those who died.” > [@](#): > > Moore-Bick’s inquiry will look at causes of the blaze, the response of local authorities and the country’s high-rise building regulations. But some survivors are critical because it won’t investigate wider issues around social housing that many residents had wanted to include. > > Many residents accuse officials in Kensington and Chelsea, one of London’s richest boroughs, of ignoring their safety concerns because the publicly owned tower was home to a largely immigrant and working-class population. > > Police say they are considering individual or corporate manslaughter charges in the blaze, but no one has yet been charged. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/317 "2018-05-22T04:03:42Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > What I found troubling in that BBC story link is how tenants were told by officials to sit tight in their flats and wait for rescue, and no rescue came. Of course no one wants a panicked stampede in that situation, but it seemed that more people might have lived if they hadn’t been dutifully following instructions. This tragedy also in the Melbourne Black Saturday bushfires. February 2009. Policy had long been that people in isolated houses in cleared areas – ie typical Aus farmers – should stay inside while the grass fire passed, then emerge to put out spot fires. Somehow the Country Fire Authority had communicated this same plan to the police, and the police to the residents, who, rather than being in isolated houses surrounded by short grass, were embedded in forest. When the fire came, police were issuing instructions for people to stay put. 173 killed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/318 "2018-06-04T16:31:16Z")
:mad:[Report: Residents in London fire wrongly told to stay inside](https://apnews.com/bcbebb4a12b84228bf0e66c110fd36e5/Report:-Residents-in-London-fire-wrongly-told-to-stay-inside) > [@](#): > > Residents of London’s Grenfell Tower high-rise were wrongly told to stay in their apartments as fire raged through the building, aided by flammable external cladding and a host of fire-safety failings, an expert report said Monday. > > Fire-safety engineer Barbara Lane said the fire department’s “stay put” policy had “effectively failed” barely a half-hour after the fire started early on June 14, 2017. But, she said, residents weren’t told to evacuate for more than an hour after that, at 2:47 a.m. > > At that point, 187 people had fled the building and 107 remained. Of those, 36 were able to get out. The other 71 died. > > Lawyer Richard Millett, chief counsel to an inquiry investigating the fire, said “it may be that the formal maintenance of that advice until 2:47 a.m. made all the difference between life and death.” :mad:☹ “Stay put”? Really? Are you fucking kidding me? “Stay put” with death swirling around? What fucking madman thought that strategy up? “Hey; there’s people firing guns in our direction!” “Stay put! Those bullets won’t affect us if we just stay put!” “The river is gonna flood the town!” “Stay put! That water will just rush right around us and won’t hurt a thing!” “The volcano is erupting and lava is heading our way!” “Stay put! I brought marshmallows and graham crackers!” You gotta be fucking kidding me; “stay put” my ass. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/319 "2018-06-27T16:43:28Z")
Well the inquiry is starting to reveal how this happened. The advice for tenants to ‘Stay Put’ was appropriate for all previous fires in these big apartment blocks where fires were confined to an apartment, which is normally the case. An order to evacuate into a smoke filled staircase full of old, young and infirm people who would have problems getting down the stairs on a normal day, trying to descend as the firemen were going up, trying to fight the fire at the same time with all their equipment? When do you give up fighting the fire and evacuate? The evidence from the firefighters is that they were quite unprepared and untrained for an external cladding fire that moved rapidly up the building. The officer in charge seemed quite out of his depth and a more senior office should have taken over. The chain of command did not seem to be working as it should. This catastrophe is the result of a whole series of mistakes, of which the firefighting tactics is just one. The testimony is quite compelling and the dilemma facing the firefighters attending was quite stark. [https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/hearings](https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/hearings) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/320 "2018-06-27T17:12:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :mad:[Report: Residents in London fire wrongly told to stay inside](https://apnews.com/bcbebb4a12b84228bf0e66c110fd36e5/Report:-Residents-in-London-fire-wrongly-told-to-stay-inside):mad:☹ > “Stay put”? Really? Are you fucking kidding me? “Stay put” with death swirling around? What fucking madman thought that strategy up? > > “Hey; there’s people firing guns in our direction!” > “Stay put! Those bullets won’t affect us if we just stay put!” > > “The river is gonna flood the town!” > “Stay put! That water will just rush right around us and won’t hurt a thing!” > > “The volcano is erupting and lava is heading our way!” > “Stay put! I brought marshmallows and graham crackers!” > > You gotta be fucking kidding me; “stay put” my ass. The most critical lesson of 9/11 is this: Get OUT. Ignore any advice to the contrary. You are your own only hope. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/321 "2018-06-29T10:27:35Z")
Small fires are too frequent in large apartment blocks to justify evacuation of large numbers of people, fires don’t normally spread. They would all be tripping over each other and getting in the way of the firefighters. Some residents would be hard pressed to make it down the stairs on a good day and you would get people trying to haul their luggage and treasured possessions. In this case one resident could be seen trying to get a large suitcase down the stairs. People do not behave well, when there is a panic. The fire started as typical domestic kitchen fire, but then suddenly developed into a major incident engulfing the whole block when most residents where asleep. How would you know that from the inside looking out? The timing and the decision making by the fireservice is a very significant factor. Notwithstanding the bravery of the firefighters, the evidence so far seems to suggest that they could have done better. This disaster was the result of a cascade of mistakes made by professionals from local government, governrnent regulators, to architects, to building contractors that created a fire that challenged the fireservice. Taking apart catastrophes like this honestly and openly is the key to making sure it never happens again. I hope the other professions and authorities responsible for this are as open as the fireservice. The police seized lots of documents from the companies involved. Fitting inflammable cladding to the exterior of the building and fitting it so badly that it created a chimney for the flames. How did that happen? Where were the checks and warnings? Hopefully it should all come out over the next months. I hope nothing is covered up or hidden. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=17)