# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/21 "2017-06-14T09:16:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Apparently](https://www.thestar.com/business/2016/01/19/how-a-common-building-material-turned-a-dubai-hotel-fire-into-an-inferno.html) it’s a known problem. Jesus. WTF? WHY would buildings continue to be constructed with this type of flammable cladding? Wait, don’t answer. I already know. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/22 "2017-06-14T09:35:49Z")
Been reading the news online of this. Just horrific. I’ve read that some residents were initially instructed to stay in their apartments instead of evacuating. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/23 "2017-06-14T09:41:08Z")
_The Silver Lining of Insomnia_ is I get to totally spring the news on my wife when she wakes up, making it seem like I really know **What the Fuck Is Going On.** ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/24 "2017-06-14T09:50:13Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Been reading the news online of this. Just horrific. I’ve read that some residents were initially instructed to stay in their apartments instead of evacuating. In a well designed building constructed with the correct materials to the right standard, the advice to stay in your apartment unless the fire is immediately adjacent is absolutely the right advice. Modern high rises can and should be constructed so that fires are contained; the standard is usually that an individual flat should be a safe haven for an hour. In which time the fire service should be able to deal with a fire that has been contained by the building. However, in a case where the fire safety of the building is below standard, the fire can spread too quickly for the fire service to contain and staying in your flat becomes dangerous. The residents of Grenfell Tower have been raising the alarm about fire safety in their building for some time. This blog written several months ago makes uncomfortable [reading](http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower) > [@](#): > > It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders. > [@](#): > > In the last twenty years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and recent fire at Adair Tower, the residents of Grenfell Tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the KCTMO. Residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire. There are not and never have been any instructions posted in the Grenfell Tower noticeboard or on individual floor as to how residents should act in event of a fire. Anyone who witnessed the recent tower block fire at Shepherds Court, in nearby Shepherd’s Bush, will know that the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we are calling on our landlord to re-consider the advice that they have so badly circulated. > [@](#): > > The Grenfell Action Group predict that it won’t be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the KCTMO management and we will do everything in our power to ensure that those in authority know how long and how appallingly our landlord has ignored their responsibility to ensure the heath and safety of their tenants and leaseholders. They can’t say that they haven’t been warned! ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/25 "2017-06-14T10:02:03Z")
The building was recently refurbished. The company that provided the new external cladding went out of business shortly afterwards. This may turn out to be something that demands further investigation. It’s worth noting that in 2009 there was a similar fire in a London flatblock. The cladding was found to be the cause of the fire’s rapid spread. In the inquest, it emerged that both the contractor nor the council\* managing the building thought that the other organisation was responsible for ensuring that the cladding met the relevant building codes. One would hope that lessons had been learned from this. We will find out in due course if they had. \*Not the same council managing this building. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/26 "2017-06-14T10:12:30Z")
It’s going to be a dangerous job bringing this building down. The BBC reports the flames have reignited. The firemen had it out for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/27 "2017-06-14T10:33:51Z")
A friend with some relevant experience and contacts has been doing some digging (see tweets [here](https://twitter.com/johnb78/status/874933913600143362)). He’s unearthed three interesting cites. 1. The material used in the cladding was Reynobond, [per this planning document](https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Decision-1333869.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=1333869&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1) 2. [Reynobond is aluminium sheets bonded to a polyethylene core](https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/en/product_category.asp?cat_id=1843). 3. This type of polyethylene-core cladding was the [cause](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-27/cheap-cladding-turns-apartments-into-time-bombs/6501716)of a major apartment block fire in Melbourne in 2014. A mineral fibre core would be fire resistant. A polyethylene one isn’t. Polyethylene core cladding is cheaper than mineral fibre core. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/28 "2017-06-14T10:52:32Z")
The BBC are reporting only 6 dead, though they say firemen may find more bodies. I hope 6 is all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/29 "2017-06-14T11:11:53Z")
If there only 6 dead then I’d say the firefighters did some good work in getting people out. If this causes more interest in strengthening fire codes and increased compliance with them, that’s a plus. And thank goodness it wasn’t terror-related. If a major factor was the exterior panels, it seems to me that they should be banned in construction and the company that produces them should stop making that particular product. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/30 "2017-06-14T11:39:00Z")
**aceplace57** You’ve been here long enough and are certainly active on the boards enough to know political jabs are not allowed in breaking news threads. This was in poor taste. Post appropriately or stay out of the thread. > [@aceplace57](#): > > I hope PM May doesn’t own a violin. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/31 "2017-06-14T12:11:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The BBC are reporting only 6 dead, though they say firemen may find more bodies. I hope 6 is all. Six would probably be a relative miracle. 120 apartments, starting around midnight, with the fire starting on a low floor? I wouldn’t be surprised if the number is more like sixty (or even higher). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/32 "2017-06-14T12:13:15Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if the number is more like sixty (or even higher). Don’t. Tempt. Fate. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/33 "2017-06-14T12:19:26Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > **aceplace57** You’ve been here long enough and are certainly active on the boards enough to know political jabs are not allowed in breaking news threads. > > This was in poor taste. Post appropriately or stay out of the thread. I didn’t realize that was a jab. The safety problems with the building are a major part of the news stories and that’s the responsibility of the governing authorities. I’ll say nothing more about it. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/34 "2017-06-14T12:20:11Z")
Some people survived because they were Muslim or were awakened by Muslim neighbours. It’s Ramadan, and people were awake for Iftar. Sunset is very late this time of year. I have friends who grew up in the area, who are now looking for family and loved ones. It’s heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/35 "2017-06-14T12:28:46Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Don’t. Tempt. Fate. It’s been, what, about 12 hours? I hope everyone who can’t already be accounted for was out somewhere and still hasn’t been heard from. Seeing as how I haven’t seen the number of missing, I hope it’s low. I hope that those in the hospitals manage to recover. I hope that reporting that a large number of tenants observing Ramadan means that people weren’t caught as unaware as could have been is true. But the number of dead is going to climb. Either from people who didn’t make it out or from those who succumb to their injuries. I hope it gets nowhere near a ten times initial multiplier, but I see that as about worst-case scenario. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/36 "2017-06-14T12:32:14Z")
Reports are saying no one on the top three floors survived. A baby thrown from the 9th floor was caught by a bystander. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/37 "2017-06-14T12:49:04Z")
I am a born and bred Grover, (ladbroke grove), and I’ve been in that block. They spent ten million on that block last year, Palm trees and pretty cladding, new kitchens. They also fitted gas pipes up the main stairwell! My mum still lives around the corner, she saw the fire climbing up that cladding. Our friend lives on one of the lower floors, the alarm did not go off. She’s safe, at a friend’s house. There is a lot of murmuring that a similar block, just up the road, trellick towers, had a fire on the top floor recently, isolated, alarms, sprinklers, everything went right. That block is a council one, but is mainly rich leaseholders now. Million pound flats. The poor man’s block, none of the safety measures worked. But I’m proud of the Grove, community spirit personified. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/38 "2017-06-14T12:49:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I didn’t realize that was a jab. The safety problems with the building are a major part of the news stories and that’s the responsibility of the governing authorities. > > I’ll say nothing more about it. The governing authorities in this case would be the local council, not Theresa May. That’s the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/39 "2017-06-14T12:58:03Z")
They’re organizing relief efforts for the families. A lot of people will need a new place to live. [https://www.instagram.com/p/BVUL-xdg4R0/](https://www.instagram.com/p/BVUL-xdg4R0/) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/40 "2017-06-14T13:02:57Z")
When I was first reading this my immediate reaction was that KCTMO was a typical slumlord out to make a fast buck. But instead I find that: > [@](#): > > In the early 1990s, the tenants and leaseholders of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea decided to pursue their legal right to manage their own homes. Following two separate ballots in 1994 and 1995, the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO) was established on 1 April 1996 and the responsibility for managing 9,760 properties passed from The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea to the Tenant Management Organisation. > > The Council still owns the properties and retains responsibility for strategic housing policies and homeless people. The relationship between KCTMO and the Council is governed by a Management Agreement, which covers all areas of the landlord business. Whilst KCTMO still enjoys a close working relationship with the Council, it is a completely separate company… > > KCTMO is managed by a Board of Directors comprising of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members. The aims of the organisation are numerous, as set out by strategic objectives in a business plan each year. > > KCTMO is a company limited by guarantee with members whose main residence is in Council owned or leasehold accommodation. There are currently over 4,500 members of KCTMO, and we actively encourage residents to become members [http://www.kctmo.org.uk/mainpage.php?main\_id=8&sub\_id=0](http://www.kctmo.org.uk/mainpage.php?main_id=8&sub_id=0) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=3)